I refuse.
Downback cr.lp x2 hcb up forward kicks.
I hit that gimmick tonight against a Rose player.
Yea its like a dash ultra without the dash, once you charged long enough withe the 2 cr.lp hit forward a lil gotta pay attention to the walking animation, after the walk go neutral then DF-D-DB-UF ultra quickly.
Has anyone compared the changes made to Cosmic Heel in SSFIV to SFXT? I checked the frame data and in SFXT, CH is -4 on block and has a faster start up. I’ve been playing a little SFXT and find the changes made to CH not to be too bad. It’s different but not bad. I had to adjust the way I used the move but once I settled in I found myself using it often. Usually to cover ground (it’s faster than walking), and as a frame trap.
In SFXT I’m able to combo into CH off of a jump in HP or HK. Not sure if that’s possible with the new changes.
My point is, if the changes made to CH is similar to those in SFXT, I can live with it.
You can’t really compare the 2. Remove the juggles and height off a hit and make the hitbox and hurtboxes the same and it’s a shitty move. The fact that CH lead to so many different options and major damage is what made it good. Not the startup.
I see. I didn’t think about hitbox differences. Didn’t even know there was a difference to be honest. My response was more of an inquiry and you managed to clarify some of the things I was uncertain about. For starters, the changes in Ultra do not mimic those of sfxt.
I was hoping there was some sort of starting point as to why the change was even made. I’m just as confused as everyone else. Why was CH even on the devs radar at this point in ssf4’s life? It’s not an OP move, nor do I know anyone who complains about the way its being used. If its not broken don’t fix it. Sheesh!!
probably makoto is a secret employee of capcom testing the game out and he’s bodying everyone with that move. also explains why he doesn’t go to tournaments. it’s cause he can’t 
Because it’s a forward moving long range heavy poke that evades lows and is safe on block. It’s essentially a mini vortex on every block and 260 meterless damage on hit. (Back in SSF4 anyways). So the devs are a bit torn between the people in Japan complaining about it and the Vega players needing it.
The problem is that it’s for the most part his only offense. Unlike SFxT where he has NUMEROUS useful tools. In both games though Vega suffers on offense (or more specifically lack of) but he is the single best whiff punisher in SFxT. Haz will probably disagree but I don’t think that’s the case in this game, nor do I think Vega’s ability to open an opponent up (i.e. get the opponent to press a button) is above bottom 3. He can’t FORCE the opponent to make a decision like pretty much everyone else in the cast can. This doesn’t really apply to online or mid to low level opponents because they haphazardly press buttons all the time that can be exploited. Once you fight really skilled opponents (in particular people who actually play, or used to play, a good Vega), they know that pressing buttons is bad and Vega’s only tool to deal with it is Kara throw, making it extremely predictable.
Vega needs to be at +3 on something on block in order to gain the ability to force the opponent to make a decision. It doesn’t even have to be CH. It can be a normal we don’t use often like close sMK.
Another thing is that in SFxT the hitbox for CH was so good that it could be used as an anti air, but in exchange it missed crouching opponents completely. Vega’s game would be completely devastated by this loss without major and significant buffs to other areas.
I think Vega suffers more on Defense than an Offense. And as a result, I would prefer a defensive option instead. TBH, I never felt that my offense was lacking. Actually,for the most part, I play a very aggressive Vega. I do agree that against skilled players, it’s difficult to open them up, but shouldn’t that apply to ALL good players regardless of which character you’re using?
I agree, Vega’s ability to whiff punish surpasses most of the cast. His poke range, combined with his walk speed, kara throw, and ability to whiff punish makes him very formidable offensively.
I’m on the side that believed Vega needed a comeback factor, aka a combo-able Ultra. But now with Ultra on the horizon, and the potential changes a little clearer, I’ve abandoned the comeback factor idea and embraced the more offensive, pressure style character that he is turning out to be. Keep in mind that I already play aggressively.
Increased jab pressure combined with everything I mentioned before, walk speed, poke range, kara throw, should provide many situations that places the opponent in a decision making state.
My mentality when playing Vega is that I place the opponent in a decision making position every time I’m within Kara range.
Well if DP FADC forward dash was unsafe (-4) for everyone on block, then I would agree with you. But thats not the case. You have to remember this is a highly defensive game as it is. No guard meter, toned down offenses, universal focuses, slow game speed; and now we’re adding red focus and delayed wake up.
There’s a paper, scissors, rock type analogy I use a lot to describe the situation in this game.
Blocking beats poking
Poking beats walking
Walking beats blocking
The problem is that blocking has a tendency to beat both poking and walking in this game. Partly because of the slow nature of the game, and partly because it takes a LOT of poking to really present a legitimate threat to walking.
Everyone’s offense in this game is weak. Vega is just toward the bottom of the rung. Why? Because he lacks a blockstring that can force the opponent to take a risk. He lacks a DP FADC that beats opponent’s poking options on defense. He lacks a real threat to the opponent sitting on down back. He lacks variety on his offense, particularly since his entire offense relies on Kara throw or Kara throw conditioning. He lacks a real cross over.
He doesn’t necessarily need all these things. Just 1 or 2. Enough to vary his offense to an extent where vega can do more than poke once safely… which makes him susceptible to focus attacks.
Now I agree that his defense is atrocious. He can’t keep people out, and he can’t get people off. cHP fixes the first problem, EX ST fixes the 2nd. Where I disagree is that the benefits of EX ST are not only not worth the loss to his already pitiful offense, but also not worth the loss of the potential gains Vega would get from an improved offense. I completely understand that EX ST getting invincibility helps prevent life loss… but the object of the game isn’t to survive. It’s to deplete the opponent’s life bar. And as it stands now the ability for Vega to deplete the opponent’s life bar is almost exclusively in the opponent’s hands. I wouldn’t mind this, except that this applying to Vega is the exception and not the rule. Make the risks and rewards a bit less polarized for Vega and more along those of the rest of the cast and you’ll get no argument from me. But there is no situation where Vega is at the advantage in terms of risk vs reward compared to the opponent except against Blanka and of course mirrors.
Like you, I also play “Aggressively” but aggressiveness doesn’t = offense. Real offense is not just the ability to do damage but is also the ability to see this damage realized. Vega is severely lacking in this category because of everyone else’s ability to cover multiple options on defense. Vega has great jump in combos for example, but how often can you really expect to land those on skilled opponents? And the difference between jump in timing and kara throw timing is pretty significant. This is the reason I keep pushing for a PoM that’s +4 on hit. It gives the opponent something other than throws to focus on. It causes the opponent to at least consider standing up to block it opening up lows, but without the 40+ frames of reactibility from jumping in. It’s not the only thing that can fix his offense. But I think it’s the best tool and the easiest to implement short of reverting CH back to SSF4 stats.
I see what you’re saying Vegaman and PoM +4 would definitely improve his offense. For the most part I’m satisfied with his offense. His poke range is by far his best weapon in his arsenal of moves. I’m able to not only whiff punish opponents with it, but punish on block as well. Now I know that you can argue that against skilled opponents it becomes extremely hard to punish on block because more than likely, their block strings are on point. But I argue that most block strings are at a proximity that already places Vega at a disadvantage due to his poor defensive options. With the exception of Evil Ryu, and Juri, most of the cast cannot perform block strings at a distant that matches Vegas poke range. Vega is ONLY at a disadvantage once a person gets in.
Proper utilization of space control using Vega requires offense and pressure. This offense and pressure causes opponents to press buttons, either by trying to read your pokes (i.e. focus cancel) or by simply executing a move in an attempt to create their own offense. No matter the skill level, everyone eventually presses buttons. Once that button is pressed, Vega has the best tools to punish, especially with ex meter in stock.
However, I agree with you because…
A major reason I argued that he needed a “comeback” factor is because the opponent having a life lead negates the need to press buttons. And without that need, Vega is pretty much dead in the water. When that situation arrives, Vega’s lack of offensive tools becomes glaringly apparent.
I guess in the end no one character can have it all, Seth at one point had it all but we all know what happened to him and why the change was necessary. I guess, the decision on what changes are best boils down to whether you believe an offensive tool is more beneficial or a defensive tool is more.
Based on my experience I would have to go with the latter. I’ve lost WAY too many life leads in this game (more than I can count) because of my shitty defensive options.
On the other hand though, if you had better offensive tools, you wouldn’t need defense because Vega could keep them out. As it should be. As it is now, it’s pretty difficult to keep someone out, or force them back out if they get in your space a little.
At this point I wish they would make him a non-charge character. ST would be really good even without i-frames if you didn’t need charge for it since you could hit them really early in a jump. Most of his problems would be solved if he didn’t require charge.
^ And what I mean by keeping them out is doing so without trades or without having to give up precious spacing using air to air like jump back MP. Taking a trade just to keep someone partially out means you take a life loss, which he doesn’t have a lot of, and then the opponent has done what they needed, especially if the trade isn’t favorable. ST is a great AA if used early and even a trade knocks them back pretty far so you don’t lose a lot of space.
Either way, him changing to motion will never happen.
Vega without the need to charge would be stupid.
But extremely fun.
Not true. In SFxT I’ll buy that, but when you factor in focuses combined with his recovery on those moves Vega is potentially at a disadvantage any time he doesn’t use far sLK. Aside from that Vega is at a disadvantage ANY time he doesn’t have the life lead due to his ineffective offense… which you stated below. Even at optimum poke range.
For me it’s the opposite. I find myself generally behind having to come back from an early deficit (usually due to holding my ground and refusing to give up space) and without really much way to regain it back other than waiting for the opponent to screw up. Well over half my losses happen in the last 20 sec and it’s because I have a life lead deficit and am running out of time. Once I have the life lead I’m generally good. The cHP buff is all I need defensively and that’s just so I can reduce the risk off of every AA attempt. I am probably one of the best out there at anti-airing (after 5 years and 2 games of doing it) with Vega and my defense (IMO) is better than 80% of the people I see on stream when almost everyone actually does have an invincible reversal option or a godlike hitbox on an AA.
The way I see it, my skill can account for the character flaw of Vega’s lack of defense, simply because blocking in this game is extremely strong. But no amount of skill can force the opponent to press a button without the proper tools to do so. You can bait them and entice them all day long, but without a legitimate threat of being afraid to NOT press a button, it ends up being a matter of how many consecutive throws you can get off. So from my perspective, EX ST having invincibility is worthless since it adds little to nothing to my game. Sure, I’ll break up some meaties and frame traps but I’d rather block anyway and not have to take the risk of burning meter or worse… being blocked since it can’t be made safe. I’d much rather translate that toward something that gives Vega the ability to win as opposed to preventing Vega from losing, because like I said, one is in your hands and the other isn’t. I’d much rather have a little more oomph in the one that isn’t.
What’s wrong with trades?
Head into the training room and play around with using cHP as an anti air. Look at the instances where it connects and compare how many moves it flat out beats to how many moves it tends to trade with.
You’ll find that cHP will trade a LOT. But that’s fine because Vega’s on the better end of the trade. The opponent loses more life than Vega and Vega recovers sooner. On top of that Vega scores a reset which gains space even though he got knocked back.
ST is a completely SHITTY AA and is only useful for AA-ing instant air normals and non-ambiguous crossovers being auto-corrected… neither of which 4 frames of invincibility factors into at all. Even invincibility on EX ST will be worse than Guile’s regular FK.
ST (any version) doesn’t need invincibility. It needs the ability to FADC. It needs improved hitboxes. It needs to be able to combo into Ultra and sweep. It needs a back charge and not a down-back charge. It needs to connect from a cancelled cMK at all ranges. This is the kinda things ST needs. Invincibility is completely worthless unless it covers all the way through the active frames of the first hit.
Trades you lose vitality and sometimes spacing. Depends on the trade. The last thing I want to do is lose vitality as Vega. Far ranged trades I don’t mind as much as closer ranged ones that means I lose space and health at the same time.
ST is good if you can hit under them, and if it trades it has good launching and you’ll be recovered before they do. ST is really shitty at close range where people can hit you as you rise where you are completely vulnerable. It’s only good if you can hit early, and they aren’t crossing you up.
I fully agree on ST otherwise, it really needs all that stuff. DB charge for it makes it near useless unless you are turtling and at that point you are already hurting yourself by not being on your feet.
I wish U2 would go back to being 2x hcf KKK.
U2 was never that command lol