But what about wake up parry throw?
Fuck comcast for not giving me internet yet and therefore not giving me 3so. Also, im fine with fei changes for anyone who cares about my opinion. >.>
is anyone having problems finding matches on 3so
Ight folks while shoryuken.com still have me in here for @ least a minute I’m going to say Saturday September 17, would be the best date for me to host. If anyone else prefer that Friday instead feel free to object but from what it looks like that’s the date. I’ll keep you guys posted as the time comes closer.
Feel bad for the twins. They will still be good due to having a great moveset…but that Cody…walkspeed better with that firepower he has…uh oh…
cody’s knife was already secretly good and they gonna make it redonculous
Please remember that I mained Cody before the storm.
I was close to maining cody in super.
AE2012 is looking verrry interesting.
Hey guise, been a while, sorry that I say this after not posting for such a while, but i had to check here on the way to check the Cody forum.
I don’t think you guys should complain that much about Guile, he was still good in AE…
Looking back at Super, Guile was easily one of the most overpowered character in the game, I dare say even more so than Yun in terms of how a bad player can be decent with the said characters in very short amount of time with little to no true skills or experience involved. Just hold back, throw boom, anti-air or poke. Poke some more, getting to the corner? Insta-air-back-grab, switch side, throw boom, rinse and repeat. With his air grab back and dmg to his poke back he’s back to a strong form without being too strong. Also, on the Hurricane Mike, that move was too strong. Did like 400 dmg being a projectile, which is very unusual. It took up half the screen so if you jump anywhere from half screen away you eat a 400 dmg ultra unscaled along with many other uses. The meter gain I have to say should’ve been given back to half or less of its capacity from super, but considering the twin nerfs, he’ll just have to worry about few legitimate bad match ups such as Abel, Dhalsim, and Vortex characters. I feel that his zoning game still remains, and will force guile players to not give up space too easily. I feel that he can be played like a moving wall. You don’t have to walk back to charge his boom… He wont be top, but he wont be bottom either, and majority of the cast in 2012 will be within that mid range with VERY few top notch and bottom characters.
On the other side, I love how so many ppl are riding Cody’s dick now because they think most of his buffs actually matter when it’s only the walk speed change that even counts to anything. I’ve actually stuck with Cody since super (didnt change to makoto, i knew she was gonna get changed again) and honestly, most of his buffs are irrelevant except his walk speed. It’s only if his walk speed is sufficient that the other changes (most of which are to his knife) will even matter. If it’s like Juri’s walk speed change from Super to AE, it’s not gonna do shit, as I have to disagree with James and say that knife was useless in Super, and will still be if the walk speed isn’t good enough. One of Cody’s biggest problem was his mobility and the only move he can do at mid range to get in that has any half-decent follow-up was his stomach blow, and picking up the knife just took away his biggest tool at the same time imprisoned him into a very narrow play style… I mean, there’s a reason why no top cody players ever picks up the knife; sacrificing bad stone and all his command punch normals is unjustifiable. Now, EVEN IF his walk speed is good enough, he’ll just be a decent character even WITH the knife buffs, as I said his mobility was ONE of the biggest problem, the other being that he has no good reversals or any defensive option(which he still doesn’t even with the bad spray changes). And honestly, most Cody players by now have gotten used to his walk speed and compensated for this by using his really good forward dash. Faster walk speed wasn’t even the top option people asked for.
He will not be even close to the top-tier, even if he had the walking speed of Dudley rofl…
There’s no question he was an awesome top character in Super, but I think it’s stretching it a bit to put him in Yun’s category. It’s not quite as simple as walking back and throwing booms, anti-air, etc. To be great at that stuff, you have to do it all with very specific positioning and timing, and it’s not something you can simply learn overnight if you want to do it right. Noob Guiles usually will boom too much, causing them to be punished easily. You can easily frame trap Guile if you can get close because he has no real GTFO me moves, like Ryu and other shoto’s have with their unchargable 3 frame DP. Usually only noob players will lose like this to noob Guiles. If winning easily with Guile was as simple as just throwing booms, anti-airing, etc., then those with little or no true skills should most likely have little to no problem doing real good with him in tourney’s. As we can see, that’s usually not the case, and those players can get weeded out very quickly. Super Guile also had nowhere near the same insanely easy hit confims and combo setups as Yun does in AE. I do agree that a nerf to his meter building SB game was in order, but like a 60-75% drop I think is way over the top. As for his Sonic Hurricane, I’ve come to accept not having much of a problem with the startup nerf, but I think damage at 400 something was justifiable because of several reasons:
- It’s a charge move, you can’t just pull it off on a whim, like Ryu’s Metsu Hadoken
- When comboing with it(which is moderately difficult to do, and noobs can’t easily combo with it as noobs can with Metsu), it usually never connects all the hits
- Helps him compete with chargeless characters like Ryu and Sagat, who BOTH have projectile ultras that hit more than SH.
- Helps him compete with his bad matchups(Sim, Viper, Abel, Akuma, Ibuki)
Also, considering the fact that Guile has probably one of the worst comeback potentials in the game, that forces a person to have to play perfect the entire match in every fight he’s in(which is impossible). Usually, one bad mistake with Guile can cause even the most dangerous Guile player in the world a round. I just think the nerfs given to Guile made this even worse for him.
I could go on forever, but I think the reasons I’ve given above are enough to justify that the nerfs Capcom gave to Guile were way over the top.
This is a gross generalization of what Sonic Hurricane sounds like on paper. I completely agree with Ton on this matter. If you don’t main Guile, I don’t expect you to understand the amount of work that goes into using him or his Ultra effectively. For example, comboing into it is a chore, the likes of which far exceed that of comboing with other projectile Ultras (Metsu Hadouken, Tiger Cannon, Kikou Shou, etc.). Furthermore, it’s a charge Ultra, which means that you can’t just freely mash it out as you can with motion Ultras. Next, the projectile basically has one primary chunk of on-screen real estate that it occupies. Sure, it scoots forward a tiiiiiiny bit while it’s out, but it’s not as though it travels full screen, which means that your opponent can simply step out of the way, back dash, or jump it on start up. Spacing Sonic Hurricane for practical usage (i.e., punishing whiffs, projectiles, and jump-ins) is quite difficult and generally requires a really solid read on the Guile player’s part, which is hard to do with a charge move. Top players don’t jump at Guile with Ultra from half-screen. Hell, they don’t jump at him from half-screen when he has the meter for an EX Flash Kick. lol It’s the same reason that Dictator’s P. Punisher is less effective now that it’s a charge move. Players can’t just react with it anymore since it requires a down-back.
Ok…don’t get me started on the damage, bro – seriously. First off, it was 450, not 400 in SUPER for the record. While that might have seemed like a huge chunk, you have to ask yourself: how else does Guile land big damage? Answer: he doesn’t. He has no real ways to capitalize on punish opportunities outside of cr. MP --> HK Flash Kick (which was *also *nerfed, I might add). However, since apparently having an Ultra that does damage in a game where characters rely on Ultras that do damage was a problem to the community, Capcom addressed it. How so? Well…they dropped it from a reasonable 450 to an utterly useless 300.
The fact is that, whether you like it or not, you have no basis for comparison between SUPER Guile and AE Yun. How many top players were winning majors with SUPER Guile or even making top 3 - 5? …take your time – I’ll wait. 
Outside of Daigo counter-picking Mago at Canada Cup in '10, there have been pretty much, well…none. Dieminion is the best U.S. Guile, and even he only gets to around top 8. Now, on the flip-side… How many top players are currently winning majors or placing top 5 with AE Yun? It’s a rhetorical question. lol
Using Guile at a high level, again as Ton said, requires a lot of patience and understanding of exactly which normal to use in every situation. If it were as easy as you implied, then everyone would’ve been out there doing it. Guile’s Sonic Hurricane was absolutely the bottom of the problem list for Guile. The problems that needed to be fixed were: they reduced the damage on his backfist and they nerfed his meter building on Sonic Boom. They did not need to continue further with his Flash Kicks, let alone his Sonic Hurricane. By taking away a useful Sonic Hurricane they stripped him of any and all comback potential he once had in a game that literally relies on comeback potential.
Well said, Mike! :tup:
tl; dr Guile can win tournaments. Dieminion won SBO quals and wins most east coast weeklies.
His matchups aren’t that bad, 4-6 at worst.
It’s not constructive discussion to talk about what he should be when he’s a competitive character.
We need professor Big Marcus’s expert analysis.
The question isn’t whether Guile is competitive, or whether he can win tourneys. I don’t think anybody has questioned that for a second. Pretty much every character in the game can win tourneys and is competitive. The question is rather, how does his degree of competition weigh in regards to the rest of the cast given the nerfs he was served in AE? In SUPER, his degree of competition is MUCH higher in SUPER than it is in AE with his nerfs. Just because you have the best Guile player in the U.S. doing well, or winning certain tourneys doesn’t mean that the high degree of nerfs he received was justified. Dieminion was still good with Guile back in Vanilla, but did that justify how low his degree of competitive nature was just because you have players that can use him well? Of course not. Also, look at EVO. Did Dieminion even place top within the top 20, or even top 32? There were 2 Yun players within the top 8 at EVO. No Guile players that I can remember. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I really don’t think it’s constructive to talk about Guile being a competitive character when it seems evident that nobody was questioning that to begin with. SMH… I’m not sure if you were just joking or not, but in case you weren’t, as a player who has used pretty much only Guile in SF since the OG days as a kid, I’m pretty well aware of what Guile needs and we he doesn’t, and I hardly require Big Marcus’s analysis to understand that.
It doesn’t need to be “justified”, the game is the way it is. Tiers exist, Capcom sucks at balancing, etc.
But if you still want to whine about how bad the nerfs were, that’s cool, carry on.
Dan why don’t you come out to games? I heard you’re the best.
Seems like you two misinterpreted my statement when I compared Guile to Yun. I said he’s only like Yun in terms of “how a bad player can be decent with the said characters in very short amount of time with little to no true skills or experience involved.” Which is still true in Super. Players with half-decent spacing ability can quickly pick him up and in few days, own the average player. I also never said or implied scrubs can win tournaments or beat high-level players. Also, it’s not smart to compare Super Guile’s success in tournaments to Yun because the only reason is that not many top players played him in Super. Many top level players didn’t play Guile because most did not like his turtle gameplay. Also, if the damage was 450 then you’ve only proven my point that that ultra was too good. There’s no arguing with that when most of his match ups in super was 6-4 or 7-3 in his favor, a lot of in which the other character only had 1 or 2 chance to get in and kill him, while Guile has multiple chances at escape because of his insane meter build.
Now do I disagree that Guile shouldn’t have had both the ultra nerf AND flash kick nerf? No. I agree that turning ultra 2 to 300 dmg and lowering his flash kick damage was too much. But like i said, he was and still is a competitive character in AE. He only has a select few bad match up and with the on-coming 2012 patch, the bad match ups in AE will either be gone or get better. Guile is not meant to have huge comeback potential, as he still can take away 30%-40% of his opponents life as they try to get in. 1 chance at escape is all Guile needs to “comeback.” You guys had a good run in Super, and just had to work harder in AE, and now he’ll be semi-back. Most of his important tools are still there, he’s still proven to be a competitive character even in AE. No reason to quit the game over it or cry about it.
You didn’t address a thing I said. Saying it doesn’t need to be justified doesn’t make it so. Who’s complaining about the existence of tiers? And who’s whining? I’m simply addressing my opinion on how Guile was basically nerfed way over the top. There’s a difference. As Mike said earlier, you cannot expect one to understand where one is coming from unless you’re the one who mains the character. Lots of things are the way they are, but that doesn’t mean we simply throw our hands in the air and be complacent.
I never suggested the knife should be used all the time. But vs some characters the knifes normals trump his standard normals and can keep people out and do good damage. (Plus landing knife throw into ex ruffian is hilarious)
c.hp with the knife is probably tied for his best anti air normal
A big reason top codys dont pick up the knife now is because its usually unsafe to pick up and killed your momentum which cody generally needed since he is not the best keep away character. Now being able to block while picking it up, being able to overhead, even better knife normals will possibly increase the use of the knife and you will see it more.
Ton: along the same line, someone who mains a character tends to overreact about changes to their character more than anything. Guile got a few to many nerfs but he is not bad at all in AE. His gameplan is exactly the same and as effected as in super. It just takes more than x hits in super for example. In super guiles sonic hurricane was a little too good. The super was NOT for comboing and was just a bonus that you could. It was basically a safer version of balrogs super for punishing bad fireballs/slow moves that also anti aired really well for crazy damage.
Also there really isnt any justifacation other than capcom doing what they do. Its not like they hold a vendetta against Guile they just make changes that they think might work and often look like idiots when doing it. Take a look at yun/yang changes for the beta test of 2012 version. You cant say crap about Guile’s changes when they might become absolutely shitty.
If this is, true, then you can say the same about just about any character. Have a half-decent understanding about nearly any character basic tools, and you can own the average player. You can also argue on this same logic that a person with a half-decent understanding of Ryu can beat an average player with just DP’s and fireballs. Ryu could be like Yun in terms of this logic you’re presenting. Do you see my point? You’re grossly oversimplifying things.
This is not even close to an issue about working harder. I even agreed that the issue of Guile insane meter building ability in SUPER needed to be nerfed. Heck, I even agree that his airthrow from Vanilla to SUPER was too strong and needed nerfing. I even had no issue with them nerfing the startup on Guile Sonic Hurricane. Again, working harder in general because of Guile’s nerfs is NOT the issue. What IS the issue is the DEGREE of how much Guile that nerfed that’s the problem. Nobody said a thing about quitting the game, and it’s even more ridiculous that you so grossly miss the point that you seem to claim that giving our opinion on the degree Guile got nerfed is “crying” about it. Fact is, that’s the obvious difference that must be recognized here.
I agree that a person who mains a character may overreact differently than another who doesn’t. That’s why I do my best to objectively analyse things that many people complained were way too powerful about Guile, i.e., airthrow, backfist, and meter building. Mike already addressed the Sonic Hurricane issue, so I don’t need to say more about that. Am I for nerfing Yun/Yang? Yes. Am I for nerfing them to the point where they are next to total jokes? Hell no! I myself was considering playing Yun in AE, but it was so many of them, Yun was becoming too saturated IMO, so I decided not too. I may strongly consider picking him back up when most people may inevitably drop him in the 2012 version. I was for nerfing my own main, just thought they did it way too much. The same is probably going to happen with Yun/Yang, and that’s all I’m saying.