Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

General Discussion
101

(Once again goodm0urning is concise where I am long-winded.)

What does Mai being created to be attracted off of specific women have to do with anything? How, exactly, is that “objectification” if, however prominent, it’s not the dominant thing about her? Sure, visually it is, but if you’re going to honestly try to complain about women showing some skin when her fighting style doesn’t exactly permit her to wear tight-fitting clothing, then why stop at Mai? Shouldn’t “we” be stigmatizing any female character with a (realistically) large set of breasts, especially if “we” have Lara Croft on there just because she has large breasts despite having reasonable clothing otherwise?

I call dibs on the first all-female fighting game where every character wears some variation of a burqa! You are all witnesses!

Oh, it’s not just you unfortunately on either front.

But, yeah, it would be rather nice if cheesecake-y fan service for arousing purposes only stopped or, at least, slowed down due to how egregious it is. However, like goodm0urning said, it’s a bit of a Catch-22 in that this type of stuff tends to push female gamers away, yet the only way it’s going to stop if more female gamers support games that don’t have it rather than just giving up games entirely. That or becoming conspicuous without being threatening or guilt-mongering.

Meh. That’s basically the same with any “spokeperson” for a (supposed) minority group, like how the NAACP thinks it speaks for all black people like they’re one unified front when a lot of black people doubtless hate black people more than the KKK.

They’re fake feminists who use the guise of feminism to push their self-righteous, self-important, selfish agendas because by using that word, they get to claim they’re being victimized no matter what character is leveled against them in their fight not to be equal, but to be superior.

No one slut-shames better than fake feminists. Actual feminists are more varied on their feelings with regards to gender norms from what I’ve seen, but, in a rare agreement with xes, that’s a sort of different subject; admittedly, it’s not one I know much more about, partly because unfortunately the straw feminists seem (a lot) common in real life.

102

I don’t really understand your point. If there are ills in society we shouldn’t deal with them because we’re never going to have a perfect one?

Food for thought: People have motives when they do things. Sexist/racist/homophobic actions are more likely if sexism/racism/homophobia is deemed acceptable by society. Punishing the actions through law is treating the symptom, not the cause.

103

I disagree with this and here is why:

  1. In female orientated material(romance novels,fan girl shipping)the male characters are almost always described with extremely attractive physical qualities. In twilight,shades of grey or female centered material and romance novels the male characters are built in a way that is meant to attract female audiences. The difference between edward and mai is only in who they are being marketed towards, but it doesnt short change the fact that both characters are by designed only relevant due to superficial qualities. The fact that 1 is a "issue"and the other is not is more or less due to the bias narrative we are conditioned into believing about men and women, that of course being that women are helpless objects that are always the victims while men are capable agents who can only victimize but never be a victim.

  2. I would argue women have more power in our culture currently and that historically woman’s power was always more covert and hidden as oppose to overt and on display like males. This in turn is probably why no one gives a shit about the times when females objectify men for their looks since we have this distorted view that men have all the power and as a result have complete control over anything that happens to them. Since we view women as helpless objects, when a woman is noticed for her looks she is"objectified’but when a man is noticed for his looks…well no one cares.

104

I usually groan while reading most arguments supporting the notion that sexism in games is as problematic as the average Kotaku “journalist” makes it out to be. However I’ve got to say, I can’t help but appreciate someone who took the time to actually break down the meaningful differences between sexism directed toward women and directed toward men in such a way that didn’t involve demonizing or belittling the opposing point of view. Regardless of whether or not I ultimately agree with you, I at least respect your tact in debating this topic. That’s a very rare thing on the internet, especially regarding something that so many people are passionate about. Kudos.

105

Admittedly there was no point, I was just ranting, but it was my way of saying that arguing over what is deemed offensive is much less important that actually stopping something that is harmful that happens to be offensive.

I know, hence why I emphasized importance against physical violence and discrimination rather than just the rhetoric of, “but words hurt just as much as physical violence.”

Both suck, but one is objectively worse than the other. Not only that but it’s more enforceable.

106

got every mouthbreather on srk in here all at once.

107

Because she was specifically designed as a sex object, based on a character type that is specifically notable for being very sexual.

That’s the entire point of the character, its entirely dominant. That is why Mai exists, because they took boobs and ass from some skin shoots and wanted to include them in a game.

And seriously practicality has nothing to do with it, try to think about what would happen if you tried to fight in a top like that (take your time on it, it can be a pretty thought).

108

Yeah its pretty heavy handed. Lately one is hard pressed to find a truly respectable heroine thats not around to pander to the lowest common denominator like that.

Saber from Fate Stay Night & current running Fate Zero anime is a rare example. She’s tough, confident, powerful, and is very attractive while showing little skin of any kind throughout the show, nor participating in fanservice. Her battle outfit is completely covered. And she’s one of the central characters!

IMO the ideal, respectable heroine if there ever was one.

“Exxxxxx…calibaaaaaa!!!”

109

King is the hottest girl in KOF, stop kidding yourselves.

Tied with Shion (yeah shutup I know.)

These niggas think I’m jokin’. :sunglasses:

That and Mature is a given, obviously.

110

Mehhh… Female armor almost always sucked (except for SC Hilde).
[media=youtube]OTGh0EMmMC8[/media]

I always preferred Vice, Vanessa, and [details=Spoiler] >_>

<_<

>_<

<_>

Spoiler

Athena + Yuri…

111

Just gonna leave this for ya nigs’ Don;t let a bitch walk over you

[media=youtube]-gYKXKL9JUo[/media]

112

(Sigh. I’m going to have link to TVTropes, aren’t I?)

I have other shit to do than this, so this is a heads up that this is probably going to be my second-to-last post on this subject for tonight.

As a fighting game character. I’m not going to pretend that they aren’t part of her appeal, but saying she’s purely sex object ignores the fact that she can actually fight and that she was actually less sexualized in her initial appearances despite being “specifically designed as a sex object”. That stupid hunched-over, unnatural & painful-looking neutral pose that no one can say isn’t hypersexual wasn’t around until quite recently.

Also, given that kunoichi are just female ninja, I’m not exactly sure what “evidence” you’re looking at for them being “hypersexual” since you keep calling them that. I don’t exactly see Ibuki or Taki “slutting it up”.

(Full disclosure: I don’t keep up with Soul Calibur at all. All I know is that I’ve heard and seen how ridiculous Ivy’s breasts have become, so maybe Taki has succumb to cheesecake as well.)

Anyway, it’s not like Mai was created solely for KOF Volleyball and then never seen again. Similarly, it’s not like she hasn’t been given characterization, which is partly why I find calling her a sex object rather laughable: even with as much flesh as sex objects show, they rarely tend to get fleshed out themselves.

However, I doubt arguing this will get anywhere with you, so I’ll just ask the obvious since you’re going to keep harping on it without actually saying anything: What would it take for Mai not to be sex object in your eyes?

Well, I don’t think I have the breasts for that, so, no, it wouldn’t be pretty.

I wasn’t really talking about just her top, though. I was talking about her outfit as a whole given how many fake feminists seem to equate showing any skin–again, see Lara Croft being part of that image, especially since I kinda doubt she’s a “positive” example (which I’ll gladly be wrong about)–with being “slutty” or, at least, with being weaker for some reason. Kinda difficult to keep the groin from tearing out of one’s pants if you’re doing that many splits and flips.

113

I avoided looking at this thread, but that shit just made me laugh pretty hard. Great message. Yay for sex positivity <3

114

Kunoichi were specifically supposed to seduce people, that’s part of their ‘appeal’.

In general, I"m sorry but you’re just so wrong about Mai. With variation that’s always been the center of the character, all of her depictions have been centered on her rediculous breast bounce animation.

As to what would make me not think of her as being designed as a sex object, probably changing her silly outfit and giving her a bra would help.

This is one of the things where I can’t even understand how people would deny the point, given both how she looks (and again, pose aside her outfit hasn’t really changed much) and the fact that the official NEOGEO magazine said her secondary sexual characteristics were based on specific porn examples. SNK has designed dozens of other female fighting game characters in all kinds of outfits, and even the ones that are supposed to be ‘hot’ (say vice and mature) aren’t like that. It’s just blazingly obvious.

115

In response to your first point, the existence of a counterexample doesn’t nullify a trend. The trend of female characters either being trophies or madonna/whores lasts for centuries, while the trend of art targeting females is fairly recent.

As far the the second point, you are objectively wrong. Males hold disproportionate power in our society, and any claim otherwise is simply misinformed. Women make less money than men, women hold fewer positions of political power than men, and the world average for the top executive positions in companies held by females is 8%.

Before you go off on your theories as to why this is, please note that causation is completely irrelevant. We’re not discussing why a power delta exists, we are discussing the existence of the power delta.

116

For a long time Soul Calibur has been as guilty as rumble roses lol. They clearly go out of the way to have their female characters extra hot…

…yeah i admit, i enjoy it for reasons other than the fighting gameplay :smiley:

117

(For the Death’s sake, please don’t quote all of that given it’s right above you on the same page.)

Rumble Roses? Soul Calibur’s become like that game for all its characters?

Well…I certainly weep for Taki’s memory then.

I’m still insanely disappointed that Shion turned out to be a (vain) guy, not even in the “everyone’s gay for Bridget” way. The role of “vain guy” was already filled by Magaki and it would have been excellent to have another spear-user, especially another female one. Now we’re still just stuck with Yuki from Last Blade…who still sucks.

Sigh.

Oh, so you mean in the sense that they were just dressed as generic hot women who seduced people for their goals given that real life ninja were a lot more clandestine about their activities. I suspected as much, but the way you keep using “hypersexual” kinda threw me, especially since Mai herself isn’t interested in seduction (like Morrigan is) despite you arguing at that it’s obviously part of her appeal.

I never said they her breasts didn’t jiggle, just that she’s not solely a sex object as keep claiming. If she was a solely a sex object, then they could have easily made her a background character. She could have easily been a big-titted, recurring piece of scenery and nothing else considering it would have been easier to just make her a background cheerleader than actually give her a move-set and design all those sprites and frames.

I guess might just disagree on what a “sex object” actually means because I’m obviously not trying to argue that she isn’t sexualized, just that she has more to her than that sexualization.

Seriously, though, unless they made her breasts not bounce at all, it would pretty much always be noticed even if she stood up straight; yeah, she’s always been kinda hunched, but not nearly as absurdly as she is in KOFXIII. Her breasts kinda in the middle of her person; they’d literally have to be on her back for you not notice, even if she was wearing a bra.

Speaking of which…

You’re going to have to be more specific than that cop-out answer, especially since not all women are even comfortable wearing bras. It’s not like a bra is going to make her stop having big breasts, just stop them from jiggling as much; they’ll jiggle though.

But, uh, yeah, I’d appreciate an actual answer since it was obvious from the get-go you think her outfit is “silly”.

Again, no one is denying that Mai is the most sexualized of the KOF fighters, especially since it’s kinda well-known who she’s designed after measurement-wise. I’m just debating whether she’s a sex object and only a sex object since that’s what you keep getting at without really defining what you mean by that; as shown by our current back and forth, it’s not as self-apparent as you seem to think it is.

118

“In response to your first point, the existence of a counterexample doesn’t nullify a trend. The trend of female characters either being trophies or madonna/whores lasts for centuries, while the trend of art targeting females is fairly recent.”

Romance novels have been around for decades, and male singers and actors have used sex to sell themselves since the time of elvis. Male sexual objectification by female’s is not a recent trend, society just doesnt care about it because our cultural narrative depicts any objectification that men might face as being harmless or"fun"while the reverse is instantly something dangerous or a issue that needs some serious attention.

“As far the the second point, you are objectively wrong. Males hold disproportionate power in our society, and any claim otherwise is simply misinformed. Women make less money than men, women hold fewer positions of political power than men, and the world average for the top executive positions in companies held by females is 8%.”

A few people hold disproportionate power in society, furthermore even if those few at the very apex are men it isnt exactly like men in power are working towards the specific interest of all men in society. For starters over 80% of work related deaths are men, the majority of the homeless are men, men get harsher sentencing for the same crime committed by a woman, funding towards men’s health(like prostate cancer)is half to 3 times less then funding spent towards woman’s health(even though prostate cancer effects men as much as breast cancer effects women), women who never marry or have children make more money then their male peers under the same situation and women male less money then men because of their personal choices as it relates to career and a host of other variables all determined by women’s choices…I could literally write paragraphs worth of examples that showcase the various ways that modern woman have more benefits and power then men in society but its a rather moot point to this discussion. ill just leave it off in saying that the top 3% of men at the very apex of society doesnt speak for the remaining percentage of the male population so to say men hold all disproportionate power in society is a terribly inaccurate remark.

“Before you go off on your theories as to why this is, please note that causation is completely irrelevant. We’re not discussing why a power delta exists, we are discussing the existence of the power delta.”

My main argument is that female objectification or at least the argument behind it is inherently flawed and pointless. The woman writing this trope is complaining about the portrayal of women even when the genre and portrayal of women is to a demographic that more likely then not isnt intended for her. My point of contention is the level of sexism and tunnel vision she exhibits in her complaints, and personally I think she gives girl gamers a bad name.

Edit: I have no idea why the quotes arent working!

119

Stupid idea, and why is this even being discussed. Its’ nothing more than ploy used by this blowhard to make money (as stated by Pertho). The issue isn’t men, the source of this issue is the female element. they expect to be acknowledged in a culture where they don’t exist or participate in (as goodm0urning stated earlier), nor exercise their voice with their money, or interest in working in the field (like Nickguy2030 said).

Until the problem resolves itself, this will continue to be the norm

[media=youtube]RFjGiJmnqZQ[/media]

[media=youtube]AV4atWN1vmw[/media]

You can’t expect to have voice or be respected in something you don’t participate in.

120

50 years is very recent, and objectification of men doesn’t have nearly the proliferation as objectification of women.

So if 100% of elected representatives were straight, white males between the ages of 45 and 54, and all of them came from upper class backgrounds and all of them went to the same schools with the same friends and with the same occupational backgrounds, you would be totally okay with that? Would that be proportional and representational as far as you are concerned?

To use another example, all of the political power in the post-war South was held by white men. Do you believe that there was a power delta between white men and slaves in post-war south, or would that statement also be “terribly inaccurate”, because not ALL white men in the south had power?

The position you are arguing from is untenable, because unless there is an absolute case (which there never is), you cannot hold your position and believe that there is such a thing as a trend in a society. Using your logic, since many people had difficult lives in the late 70s, and there were Cambodians who did not have difficult lives in the late 70s, then you could not state that people who lived under the rule of the Khmer Rouge had a more difficult life than anyone else.

I am not discussing her specific arguments or how she represents any group. What I am discussing is that there is a power delta between men and women and that objectification of women is more of an issue because of historical context.

I also hold the position that not marketing to her demographic (women, who make up 46% of gaming purchasing power) is a mistake that will be made less often as time goes by. The game industry is maturing, both due more diversity in creative positions and much stronger market analysis. Both of those factors will help even out the gender dynamic considerably in the years to come.