Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

General Discussion
281

http://www.businessinsider.com/actually-the-gender-pay-gap-is-just-a-myth-2011-3 The truth would like a word with you

The pay gap is a myth and distorted exaggeration produced by flaw methodology that for some reason is spouted as economic fact. For starters all the “pay gap” figures illustrate the annual median earnings between all men and women regardless of occupation, meaning they will compare a female school teacher to a male doctor’s yearly income. This in itself will already produce a very skewed number that is in no way shape or form remotely accurate or fair. Secondly when they compare a man and woman in the same position they will almost never account for the variables between a man and woman’s work ethnic. As provably demonstrated and explained in warren farrell’s book “Why Men Earn More”, men will often work longer hours, do more over time and often come into the same position with more experience or education. When these variables are accounted for and when the woman in question has the same education and experience while working the exact same hours the gap instantly vanishes…its all in context and comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges. Another fun fact is that women who never marry nor have any children earn up to 8% more then their male peers in the same line of work and position. This probably has something to do with the eroding attendance of men in post secondary institutions and the fact that the majority of university and college students are women…a trend which has been going on for 10+ years strong.

As for the money gap…well http://www.msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=11995

Women are not only the dominate working force but also the dominate force behind consumer spending, meaning that not only are women just recently earning more then men but also control over 70% of how the nations money is being spent. As for laws…well exactly what laws are being legislated that are inherently bias against women because if anything the exact opposite is true. I suppose you will make the argument that because men hold more sits in office and as CEOs that this reflects a conflict of interest and power discrepancy that disadvantages women to the point of diminishing them as a “2nd class citizen”. This is demonstratively false however since women’s interest are constantly the subject of public advocacy even when there are no "real"issues to address.

Even when men comprise the majority of work related deaths, are dropping out at all levels of education more and more each year, compromise the majority of homeless, have little to virtually no reproductive rights or standing in family court, no shelters if they are beaten or sexually abused and get half the funding for health related matters with virtually no government dollars spent on helping any of these issues…your gonna try to talk to us all about a power grid with men at the top and women on the bottom. Nearly every issue or grievance a woman has is in someway being addressed with some government sanctioned program, every choice they can make is subsidized and the media,schools and heads of office routinely make it a mission to “help women out”. Compare all the special"woman only"incentives in the work force or the education system and compare them to all the"male only"initiatives designed to help out the areas in society where men are struggling…it’s not even a comparable scale.

If the basis of the power grid theory is only in relation to the number of men in power in contrast to the number of women in power with no narrative for context and how the power from those men is being utilized, then we got a massive fallacy on our hands because a few small percentage of men in power doesnt by extension mean all men share in that power and that the collective effort of those men is to only benefit their own gender while screwing women over at every turn.

282

You and me, both!

It doesn’t stop the idea entirely, no, but it does make it more debatable! I really hate to use theoretical examples, because that has the risk of getting trapped in the specifics of the example, but say I made a game about men who fought each other with giant, bouncing erections (I’d call it Bobblecocks), and that game made a certain contingent of the population uncomfortable. Now, I could argue that it is just for laughs, that it’s okay because it’s men being objectified, or that I gave these guys lots of character history and rationale behind why they’re jumping around swordfighting with their dicks. I could even point to the people who played my game and say, “well, they don’t have a problem with it, and they’re my target audience, so whatever.” All of that is fine. But no matter my intent, anything I said wouldn’t change the fact that it made those people uncomfortable, nor would it negate their right to express their opinions about it, or to want to examine why and what went wrong from their perspective, or even to put it into the context of how men have had to feel insecure about penis size and cock comparisons for generations. And yes, I also very much have the right to disagree with them and say that my game is fine and that they just don’t get it, but disagreement is a far cry from telling them to stfu or nut up or stop being a whiny cunt. If they call me a sexist monster for making that game, they are wrong, and if I call them spineless fucktards for taking umbrage, so am I.

Putting bobbing dicks aside, context really is everything in social studies, because so much is going to be subjective. Just because someone doesn’t see the problem and isn’t touched by it doesn’t mean that problem doesn’t exist to others, or that it shouldn’t be examined. Seeing who can scream “NUH-UH!” the loudest isn’t going to cut it. It’s really great if someone connects to a character - male or female - in a video game in a positive way, for whatever reason. Being a gamer and a comic book fan, I’ve often connected to characters that I’ve been told I should feel objectify and insult women. The subject of viewer/audience perspective vs. creator intent, and how one can transcend the other is actually pretty near and dear to my heart, and one of my favorite topics. When I am bothered by something, I analyze it to figure out why it bothered me and whether or not it’s worth being bothered by. So, even if they do it in a manner that irritates me (and I agree with you that something about this woman’s phrasing does come across as irritating), if someone else has an issue that they want to analyze or express, then it’s not really my position to say that it’s not legitimate just because I happen to disagree with it.

283

Well the study still shows that women make 75% the wages that men do, I’ve already said I’m not a big fan of post-hoc justifications. The article you linked doesn’t deny anything but puts forth a series of rationalizations for the pay gap.

That being said,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/katetaylor/2012/06/13/even-women-doctors-cant-escape-the-pay-gap/

Note, same hours same pay same type of practice. And note, Forbes, it’s not exactly Mother Jones here :stuck_out_tongue:

to quote the article you linked there,

"Though women are about to be the majority of US paid workers, women are still discriminated against in wages, benefits, pensions, and social security. Workers still do not have paid family medical leave guaranteed nationwide (although numerous countries do) and very limited public funded child care. In fact, half of all women employees do not have one paid sick day. Moreover, the federal guarantee of unpaid Family Medical Leave only covers 47% of private sector workers. "

Women have made most of the household spending decisions for decades now, that hasn’t changed at all.

 
 

[quote=TSpeaks, post: 7106875, member: 70468]
(and I agree with you that something about this woman's phrasing does come across as irritating)t.
[/quote]

 
I bet you just like *The Hunger Games*.
284

Obviously, that’s extreme and I should’ve seen that coming (pun not intended).

I meant characters like Bayonetta, the new Lara Croft, etc. After exploring the character, do you still think it’s fair to say they were for the male gaze after they’ve proved themselves to be more than pandering? Or would that be debatable?

285

Seriously, I’m waiting for people to help me make a series. I need money for 40s.

286

Lmao those arent post hoc justifications my friend, they are documented findings when researchers began to investigate men and women’s work ethic. There is plenty of literature on the subject that details(with peer reviewed empirically sound data)that the gap doesn’t exist when you compare a man and woman working the same job with the same hours and experience. The gap only appears if you compare the overall median earnings of all men and women, in other words apples and organes. Also considering that women with no family or children out earn their male peers by over 3%, the gap is actually in reverse with women who have a uninterrupted career. The report linked here goes into all of this in great detail http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/03/08/department-of-labor-gender-wage-gap-a-myth/

As for he dr article, it oddly enough debunks itself with the explanation that women negotiate differently in respects to their practices. We should also note female docs are more likely to have interrupted service in their first 5-10 years due to maternity leave and will often return with greatly reduced hours. Although outside all the tangible evidence against the wage gap fallacy, the suggested implications from the wage gap defy all logic and reasoning. If companies can get the same work ethic from women but at a cheaper cost then why the hell would anyone hire men to begin with…I get the whole paranoid super villain plot that suggest all men are working against women but are we honestly suppose to believe companies would prefer keeping the work force a boys club as opposed to cutting cost and making money lol.

Anyhow as for the 2nd example I made a mistake, it isn’t just consumer spending its total spending like for houses,cars and other major expenses.

287

I do. So did she! And in that HG video rant I agreed with her that there is an issue with casting calls specifically looking for white actors for lead roles, especially when the characters in those roles aren’t necessarily described as white in the source material. I felt like that was worth noting because there is a shortage of roles available for minority actors, and that culturally that’s a problem. Then I took umbrage when she said to skip the other two books because they weren’t worth reading. I’m never fond of the “well,* I* don’t like it so therefore it has no value whatsoever” stance no matter what it’s about. It’s dismissive and implies that one opinion is more valuable than the other. But that also speaks to why I wouldn’t support this kind of kickstarter, too. I don’t see her as an authority, and I don’t feel a need to help her do research so that she can feel like one. I would hope that she isn’t encouraging people to just write off the games she’s talking about entirely because she feels that they have sexist portrayals (not that her word has that much weight, but just on principle), but I wouldn’t trust her not to let her emotions cloud her critique or examination of the subject matter given how I’ve heard her phrase things. While I don’t think we should ignore historical and cultural context while examining sexism in games (or racism, or anything else), there is also the fact that the context of the game itself should be considered in its examination. One bad character doesn’t mean that the whole game is shit, so to speak, and one shitty game shouldn’t necessarily reflect on a whole industry or community. I might just have a more difficult time making sweeping generalizations than some do, however, and tend to want to take things on a case-by-case basis. Context, to me, means a lot.

288

I like Sophitia. She always fighting the good fight against Soul Edge. A courageous, selfless woman whose only goal is to protect her family.

She also sits on people’s faces, but dammit she does it for the children’s sake.

289

no, fuck magneto and iron man

290

That Hephaestus however is a perv.

Also, its a little creepy when she sits on her Sister’s face.

291

Put that on a t-shirt and sell it.

Also, Real Talk, the FaceSitter has a follow-up throw that ends with her breaking their neck (ALSO for the children)

292

I think there’s a line between condemning the whole industry and saying ‘no really guys this is a real thing’ against all the ‘nuh-uhs!’

A game or character being kind of sexist shouldn’t reflect on a genre or community, but maybe a mass community response to an issue should.

293

If girls get covered up I demand gief finally wears some clothes…same for urien!

294

If she was really doing her homework, you’d think the character from this fuckin lollipop chainsaw game would be front and center of that banner instead of that GOW character that could easily pass for a male from a JRPG.

295

Magneto and Iron man are the most sexual-ized characters in MvC2. Look at those loops, too sexy!

296

Nothing more awkward than booting up 3SOE and having Urien’s thong-wearing self posing in full HD. :wtf:

297

That is true, and as much as I dislike sweeping generalizations, there is a certain kind of abhorrent behavior that shouldn’t be accepted or tolerated culturally, and even the milder “well, she should’ve/probably expected the reaction she got” responses speak to this resignation of assholery that’s sad at best. I’m far more disturbed by the overly defensive, apologist, and outraged reactionary comments than I have ever been by the sexist portrayals themselves. It indicates a level of ignorance and dickishness that is equal parts startling and disappointing to see in this day and age. But I’m not going to be the one who starts a kickstarter for funding in order to study or analyze that. I feel like I’d have more success with the BobbleCocks project.

I like to delude myself that this sort of thing does sort itself out in a way. Eventually, cultural shifts are forced, whether we want them to be or not, and people who cling to outdated opinions and attitudes will have a more difficult time finding mates and producing offspring. The selective breeding out of stupidity, as it were. Granted, the internet has helped to give those people a voice and sense of affirmation as well (part of the general rule of “for everyone who agrees with my opinion, there is going to someone who thinks I should just go suck a dick”). I’m optimistic that common sense will ultimately win out in the end, though. That’s a very big part of the delusion.

298

she should talk about custer’s revenge

299

(Ugh. I think I fixed all the typos I made in that massive last post of mine. Sorry about the sloth.)

It’s rather a shame that xes can’t agree to disagree or see what he (?) is doing with regards to focusing entirely on Mai’s appearance when she’s not a one-note character. That said, I was never trying to convince him of anything in the first place, just trying to find out more about his argument, which I have…indirectly after trying to drag it out of him. As said in my last post, I rather realized it was pointless to debate anymore with him unfortunately.

Still better than talking about the attention whore in the first post who will still have shilled idiots out of their money that could have gone to far more worthy (Kickstarter) causes even if she manages to do something utterly positive at this point. Still pointless, though.

That said, I thank you, xes, for keeping it mostly respectful. (Also, I really have to stop using bold so much, but underlining seems even more condescending and italics is reserved for proper titles, so …)

Anyway, I kinda have to catch up on the thread still, but I’m going to respond to some posts that I had meant to beforehand. Then I’m going to do some errands, finally update the UMvC3 Chris thread and then probably post in there again sometime again in like…five hours.

Glad that I’m not the only person who has noticed this. Far too many non-comedic commercials egregiously focus on either scantily clad bodies (usually of women, but not necessarily exclusively women) or how avoid being “forever alone”.

It’s part of the reason I don’t bother watching TV most of the time.

I completely missed this post earlier. Hunh.

Those books look quite interesting, but I have way too many of them I still haven’t read right now, so I think I’ll stick to the wordpress for now. Thanks.

Dat ass.

wolf-whistles

I forgot to say this: Thanks for reminding me I still need to watch Fate Stay Night. I’ve heard great things about it as it is and finding out that Saber is actually female makes me want to finally watch it even more.

Oh, hunh. That makes sense. Thanks. Never knew.

Then again, it makes sense. It’s sort like how Makato was originally supposed to be Ryu’s younger brother, which is why she also looks so androgynous in 3S. They made look more feminine in SFIV of course, even before the whole “I HAVE A FEMALE VOICE!” thing.

Still a shame that Yuki is such a horrible character, though.

300

You wanna talk about selling sex then you should talk about the music industry. Too bad they would get that whole fucking website shut down in a matter of days.