Real talk don’t do this stock stuff. If I’m getting bodied and have 1 stock left as compared to my opponent who has 3 and he has a bar and a half of meter I’ll just run away the whole time to be a DICK and make everyone miserable and I’m sure others will do the same. Plus it makes keepaway more interesting to have a timer . I don’t own the game nor have taken a long sit down with it, but if the items are balanced and spawn in certain positions I don’t see too much a problem of them being on, and the same goes for stage hazards, but the big thing is to NOT use stock. Also think of it this way, two bad players are playing and cannot land supers and keep wasting their meter. The match will go on forever.
Honestly… why isn’t there an option for both? It seems silly, because either option would end up catering to one specific playstyle, whereas merging them would allow both to be viable. A good zoner could time it out, but a good rushdown could clean up in a minute flat.
Keep away is a viable strategy and always has been. I’m not refuting that. But in a traditional fighting game, the constraints of the stage, along with lower mobility options, helps give the rush character better opportunities to close the gap and begin an offense. Think about it. In a timed, 1v1 format, what’s to stop someone from getting 1 kill, and then running away the rest of the time? The keep away strategy is very effective in this game, with limited methods for the rush character to attack. How can you possibly effectively attack someone who has the mobility and space to run away, while you have limited options?
2v2 is entirely different. A variety of formats can work there, but now we’re dealing with issues of keeping the game exciting while keeping matches short enough in order to run brackets in a short amount of time.
The only stage hazard that I can see being banned for skewing things is Dr. Nefarious’ bubbles in the second phase of San Francisco, it’s pretty much a kill unless the enemy is a character with horrible vertical supers (it’s a field day for Jax, though)
AP management is a big part of the game and you’re eliminating two things that can greatly help you drain your opponent’s AP. I really don’t see why they should be turned off at all. As already mentioned, items have their downsides and the stage hazards have obvious cues and plenty of time to react to them.
I think the only rule that should be set is what John said. Random select for stages.
Stock is great, but as mentioned, it can take a while before a match ends so time would probably be best in order to get matches running on time.
If only there was a timed stock mode.
turn off all items except the crows and the axe
I just want to know why you want a snap judgement ban on parts of the game. Its too early for this stuff, period. Let the game grow a little.
So basically your entire argument boils down to
so my response is:
You catching them. You can’t say that it’s impossible to do so, the game hasn’t been out for that long. Here’s the thing, rushdown characters are hindered in no way from infinite time, their goal is to get in and get kills anyways. Keepaway characters on the other hand play a very slow game and often aren’t about making a ton of good reads, but rather one good read that gives them the lead they need to win and that’s it. Infinite time means they are FORCED to make something happen because they cannot win if they don’t, and it almost directly contradicts what they’re trying to do.
I’ve got a question for you. Why is someone getting 1 kill and running away for the rest of the match a bad thing? I don’t care about big the stages are, and I certainly do not care how exciting it is to viewers, what I care about is how legitimate the competition is, and as far as I’m concerned if someone runs away successfully they deserve the win, because the person trying to catch them wasn’t doing his job well enough.
Are we all forgetting you can’t block in the air? Air dodge is a one time deal and you can bait it. If someone is in the air you can hit them. If someone is on the ground you can throw them. I feel like I shouldn’t even need to explain this, it’s Fighting Game 101, but every time I hear an argument against time matches it’s always something ridiculous like how zoning is cheap and we shouldn’t let it be good in any way.
Pure and simple, infinite time stock matches ONLY HELPS RUSH DOWN CHARACTERS AND HINDERS A MAJOR STRATEGY FOR KEEP AWAY CHARACTERS. It’s bullshit to intentionally pick the game mode that makes one style of play weaker. For the best interest of both tournament organizers who want to be able to accurately plan for the game and for the interest of the balance of the game, time mode should be the tournament standard until such a time comes that timed stock mode exists.
this debate is getting good. everyone has very good points. I am on both sides of the fence really.
it doesnt really matter to me what rules go set in stone.
last nite me and my locals ran 1v1’s with items NONE and hazards OFF, a game usually takes around 5-10 minutes with stock 3’s.
but they can go much longer. what I learned in the settings is its all about player skill with these settings. a match changes very much because of how the stages are designed. things become very situational.
we also ran games with default settings except longer time, and what I felt when we played was it seemed atleast 3 items spawned in a 1v1 7 minute game. The hazards are much of a big deal. Gameplay seemed to be more about grabbing and item. Punishing your opponent for letting you pick up the item. and then punishing him for letting you get a strike that can be combo’d into.
I am fine with both settings although I think more skill is displayed with items off. Items to me seem very OP.
An Axe = a full level gain
Razor Claws = a full level gain
If anything if Items were to be on. I think they should spawn less. 3+ items spawning in 7 minutes I presume on default 5 minutes 2 or 3 only spawn. Too me that seems like too many items personally. If were gunna have items they should be important and a top concern in the game. They dont need to be something that we brush off because their not threatful and because of the amount of appearance that we are careless to them. I think if they spawn less they will be more important in the fact of a player will guard the item to make sure his opponent will not get the pickup. And a player will pick it up if he prefers using that item again his opponent. Remember items disable movesets and grabbing. Only thing you can do is jump and hit. So picking up an item against characters like Raiden and Rappa are quite risky.
just my 2 cents
Fuck items and hazards. Its a damn distraction. Also gotta play time mode or else matches take all day! Just turn on Show Score.
You can dodge while holding an item…
1v1 Timed, 2v2 Timed
Its excruciatingly clear that the game was designed around timed events. I don’t know how anyone whos played it for more than a couple of hours could say stock is better for this game without just copying and pasting their smash bros mindset.
On timed events zoners actually have to try and *balance *running away and building meter. Go run away on the killzone 2-part map on the second part. You’re not going to get hit. Its way too easy to stay away, and will just bore any viewers to death.
Getting a level 3 in timed will be rare as hell unless people have mastered their character. Knowing the combos will be way more important than in stock. Someone getting a multikill off an extended supercharge-mode type super (raiden lvl 2/3 etc) will not end the match, but only make it more important for the other person to get in their and get some serious meter, allowing a final run away phase for the person in the lead, but without extending into the absurd 10-15 minute match length.
Still reading thread but posting this here just to remind everyone to watch WNF tonight on the twitch.tv/leveluplive stream tonight because they will be doing 2v2 mode w/ certain settings just to see what everyone thinks as well.
Will they be running 1v1 tourney as well?
They ran 1v1 last week. Not sure if they are going to do it again today but I know for sure that they will be running 2v2
Here’s an idea: Leave it up to individual tournament organizers. As a community, we should be open to experimentation with a new game. If need be, we can extend sets to accommodate for what people perceive as “random” or whatever. Let the game develop before making any big decisions like this. We do not understand this game enough yet to say, “this shouldn’t be allowed.” Plain and simple.
Sent from the Batcave
Can you give me the link? I’m curious to see how this plays out.
My friends and I playing locally have tossed around a different idea; why does there only have to be 1 tournament standard already? I feel like this game, in terms of hazards and items, has not developed enough yet to make a good judgement on what promotes the most fair, competetive gameplay. We’ve been trying different settings in terms of items, hazard, time, stock, 1v1, 2v2, etc. trying to mix and match and see what works best. I encourage everyone else to try it out - if you find a ruleset that’s different and works better than what you originally liked, then the game has developed. If it’s not working, then you’ve confirmed your thesis, so to speak.
I hope tournaments continue to play around with settings in order to help the community determine what works best.
Honestly, we’ll eventually see a match where it somehow boils down to 1v1, and the losing player, say he was a Drake will run away on say the Killzone level. They could essentially run away forever keeping the center of the stage between them and the opponent. This is why it has to be timed. Though I like kill limit, the possibility of infinite run away is too great for Kill/Stock limit to be played. At least with timed, runaway cannot be forever and strict decisions need to be made on both players parts. But it still doesn’t get rid of the situation of someone landing a kill and running the rest of the match, which makes for horrible gameplay from a spectator perspective. That’s why it can’t be 1v1.
tl;dr 2v2 Either timed or kill limit, definitely not stock. Even much of the people who worked on the game say they’re “unsure” about 1v1 but look forward to 2v2.
2v2 timed makes the most sense for tournaments. Sure kill limit sounds like it will go fast, but that isn’t always the case.
Ugh if its 2v2 I might skip it… Not a big fan of 2v2.
Why do we care about spectators again? Should we ban Guile from SF4 because it’s boring for spectators? Why should that even be a factor we take into consideration? And we still have no strong evidence that running away is completely unstoppable, and I think to assume it is at this point in the game’s life is ridiculous.