I turtle a lot.
I would be the “beat your ass in casuals then choke like a dumbfuck in tournament”
hopefully those days are over, but it’s proven true in the past.
-KDX-
also what’s initially worse? a throw for regular damage, or a hit into damaging combo. so statistically (sp?) parrying usually would have better payoff? would that make it exactly rock/papers/scissors?
what beats a parry? throw? high damage? not really (of course depends)
what beats throw? attack? high damage? most often yes (through combo/special/super combo).
so actually parry would be much better than hit/throw… in that aspect at least wouldn’t it? unless of course you don’t time it right or wrong direction. but same can be said about hit/throw I guess…
I don’t really see 3rd Strike being a turtler’s paradise. Unless you pick Chun or do fireball zoning with Akuma. Both of which are characters that would be able to do the same thing even if there were no parries. Parries are the reason the game is more offensive IMO. Obviously you’re gonna be more inclined to take risks if you know that if you catch on to your opponent’s next attack you can swing the match around in your favor. Parries can be used for defensive purposes as well but like offensive parrying…it’s just used to augment a style of play that the player already caters to.
3rd Strike is a game where almost nothing is 100 percent or guaranteed after anything else. Just because you did a whole chain string into super with Yun while the opponent was blocking doesn’t mean Genei is free. It’s likely that they may not be able to do much else but they can do things like red parry the last hit or the shoulder and punish with their own combo. They can also parry down a certain mix up during Genei and punish and then stick their own attack in if Yun player is afraid of a parry. It’s risky and the timing is strict but it can be done and if you do it successfully will force the Yun player to try a different way to set up Genei. Yun can also do the same thing by simply not doing anything at the start of Genei and force the person trying a low block to risk throwing out an attack or parrying at the wrong time. Which then Yun can easily punish and set up for more shit.
Like a lot of people have mentioned before…you’re inclined to do more things on an opponent’s wake up because of parry. You can do stuff like purposely whiff a meaty and then parry their wake up attack and punish. The opponent can actually punish a meaty attack and so on and so forth. The game really caters to just whoever is creating momentum. Whether it’s offensive or defensive. Anyone who says 3S caters to turtles just watches too many Chun Li fights. A character that even without parries would be stupid in a turtling style.
Other characters like Yun and Ken can be rather offensive and Yun pretty much is forced to play offensively even when his dive kick zoning/battery is working for him. In order to kill people with Yun you still must activate and create an offensive. Not to mention there are a lot of characters in the game that before Genei have just as good or better offensive options than he does so they will be rushing his ass down at some point if he’s just trying to make an attempt to zone all day. Ken can be played any way really. He has the tools to play a strong zoning/turtle game yet has too many good offensive tools to not have to turtle with him. With Ken it really just depends on the matchup and the current situations of the fight whether you decide it’s better to turtle or rush.
From there a lot of the other characters in the game are very offensive oriented. Most of the mid tiers in 3S are either just better when played offensively or because of their playing style are more or less forced to play offensively at points to win. Mak, Dud and Urien are all for the most part offensive characters and the only time they really have to zone or turtle is when facing a character that shuts them out (Ken/Chun) or the opponent is just clearly gaining momentum in the fight. Top players of all 3 of these characters are generally rather offensive (trying to end the match at the start of round 1).
Generally 3rd Strike caters to whatever style of play is working for you or whoever is playing. Parries are not low risk as a matter of fact are very high risk but the reward is also very high. So in theory it is safe to back your offensive/defensive game with parries because when set up correctly that shit will get you wins. When the opponent believes they have an opportunity to break your rush/zone/turtling game you back it up with a parry and punish. You can do stuff like option select parry and move back to block if you don’t parry anything to cover yourself from getting hit. A lot of stuff like that is good options and even when people tell you you shouldn’t parry on wake up…top players still do it just because they know that if they are pretty sure of what’s going to happen on the wake up it’s worth taking the risk.
Yet, these are all the same reasons why parrying can get you killed. In essence you’re gambling on the idea that the opponent will try and hit you with an attack within a certain set of frames so that you can punish. Yet you see people randomly get hit by shit all the time in 3S because they barely mistimed a parry. Characters can do things like force you to parry an attack so they can buffer it into something else before your retaliation takes effect. The opponent can also reverse this on you and simply block after a successful parry and ruin your shit. All it takes is for you to option select at the wrong point or just flat out mistime a parry and you eat shit and look stupid as hell. Just seemingly getting hit by things out of the blue. Which then all of a sudden makes parries suddenly unsafe and no one wants to parry on wake up anymore and people start to bitch up and block shit again.
It really just depends on what’s going on in the fight and who is doing a better job of analyzing what is going on in the match. The best style in 3S is the style of a player who doesn’t accommodate to a style. Rather…they use parries to dictate the flow of the match in their favor in both an offensive/defensive matter depending on the current circumstances of the match. Parries aren’t any better depending on whether you use them offensively or defensively and they don’t cater to a certain style of play. They are more so there to augment the style of play you already utilize.
Parries in essence are a victim of their own strength. There is no one thing that shuts out parries. There are no whiff frames for a missed parry and essentially parries are hidden within an opponent’s gameplan. If you ask me…parries aren’t even part of the RPS that people like to relate 3S to. They’re more like a 4th ace trick that can make or break your game.
To get back on topic with the topic…I guess you could consider me a stylish player. I don’t like to conform to tiers (although I do understand and respect tiers) and I don’t really analyze the weaknesses of my character so much as other players like to. I rather prefer to work on their strengths and utilize that to overcome my opponent on its own. Which is why I like 3rd Strike to begin with. The game works a lot on deception and throwing off your opponent’s mind set and although there are clear tiers in place…if you know what you are doing you can be successful with anyone. There is no clear strategy for any fight in 3S. It all changes because of the deception of the parry and fights are more based on momentum than planned out strategies. Of course knowlege of the matchup is important but when you already understand the matchup 3S still allows for a lot of other human factors to be implemented into the game. It really is a game of your mind vs. the opponent’s.
I guess I fall into the turtle category when it comes to 3S. I do so to try to play in character. What I mean by that is I play the way I figure the character would actually act like in real life. Strange reason I know but it’s fun. I use Q, who is a strange, relatively quiet character (never has win quotes besides …?..!) that has odd movements and is seemingly slow. He appears to be more interested in gathering information than fighting, thus I choose to play a defensive game for the majority of the match and then integrate in the offense. To make it seem like on one hand, he’s curious about this person he’s come across and on the other hand also wants to beat them to a pulp once he’s seen enough. Also the lack of aggression adds to the mystery. “Why don’t you fight back?!” is something I hear quite a bit.
And not that I make it to a lot of these tournies but when I do, I assume a quiet deameanor. Just setting up some kind of mood that can relate to Q’s. I stare at the character select screen not saying a word while I watch the timer countdown to zero. I mean my opponent will select their character right off the bat but I just sit there with the icon on Q and let the time go by lol. I didn’t know that bothered people but one guy was staring at me one time with a “What the hell is your problem?” kind of look on his face. I stared at him for a second and then slowly put my eyes back on the screen. Yeah, I stole the character select timer countdown from Kuroda but I think a few people are relating me to that now.
Yeah…I’m weird. I limit the timer runout to the first match of every opponent I fight. I’m just trying to get under my opponent’s skin not get my ass kicked out in the street, lol.
Q + 3 taunts + disgusting amounts of turtle = Slaughtered opponents in due time
Ok this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Ever.
Rediculous as in rediculously awesome or the rediculous in the bad way? Either way works.:wgrin:
Oro’s s.MP is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever been hit by in 3S. Ever.
Being a chun-li player, im just going to stand in line with the turtlers. I dont like the title though. Maybe ill pick up Makoto.
i am a turtler i think because all time i try atacks when i am safe
but i have a lot about Gimmicky Pete and Grumpy Old Man play style
I compare my style of fight with a boa constrictor… i positioning myselft and i press you …you can’t breathe…and you die sooooo slow
because this all guys hate me so much
There’s also the kinda player that just lets his name and past do the fighting for him, meanwhile the other player is choking up in fear.
It happened to me once, and I shoulda had the match.
Which player was this you were versing?
Regarding parrying
Human reaction times are around 180 ms for visual stimulus for non-choice reactions, and around 380 ms for choice reactions. In terms of SFIII that translates to:
Universal reaction counters only work if they’re effective more than 10 frames after the attack is initiated. Specific counters need to work 20 frames after initiation. (The super pause means that supers are easier to parry than their frame counts suggest.) For the faster characters in 3rd strike, that translates to shallow jumping attacks, fierce/roundhouse, and the slower special and command attacks.
Since it’s not humanly possible to reaction-parry all attacks, there are two ways that parrying is practical - minimal opportunity cost random parry attempts, or anticipating the opponent.
Truth be told, if your human opponent is capable of out-reacting, or reading you to the point that SFIII-style parrying is an effectivetactic, then it means that you have no game.
“Yet, these are all the same reasons why parrying can get you killed. In essence you’re gambling on the idea that the opponent will try and hit you with an attack within a certain set of frames so that you can punish. Yet you see people randomly get hit by shit all the time in 3S because they barely mistimed a parry. Characters can do things like force you to parry an attack so they can buffer it into something else before your retaliation takes effect.”
Very true statement, this is especially a huge problem with chars like gouki, ken and chun. That cMK is a obvious bait at times, and parrying that to something immediate can be counter productive, cause that fucking nasty fast SA is the next thing coming. I think on occasion, guarding after you parry that can be helpful. Better to surrender a small advantage then eat some horrible damage cause you got jumpy, and we all have these moments.
You are on the one man! Keep going, the rabbit hole of 3rd strike info goes deeper and deeper and deeper. I am of the old man style.
P:S I am a 2nd Dynasty African Egyptian(Mizaram/Kemet), been a long time since I met a Greek.
Love this article.
Good stuff.
I’m just a scrub.
I guess it would be possible to be a mix of several different kinds of player archetype. im relatively new to the forums, but not to gaming. i’m one of those players who learned from playing (and getting my ass kicked) top OG players. THEY went to tournaments, not me,i came up playing these guys,and have become somewhat of a “procedural player” i play however the situation dictates, if there is room or atmosphere for stylistic play, then im all for it, but when shinshay wants to stomp my face in with sent(asshole,lol:arazz:) then i can adapt accordingly…i wish there were more players in MD, but for now, i get to practice with some awesome players. and despite my neg. rep, i think this is a good community to learn the basics that i so horribly lack…:wonder:…
i dont/cant tri-jump,i rarely wavedash,
i cant use storm,mag or ironman,
i dont think fastenough to alpha-counter
i suck @ parrying and JD’ing
i JUST learned how to RC funny kick (thanks rugal B.)
and yet, im pretty confident in my skills. its my strength and my weakness i guess,
a mix of gimmicks/setups/rushdown/turtling and just plain fighting…
because all the tech stuff sounds solid on paper,and i lose to top players alot, but if you beat someone once,soon it becomes more than once, then it becomes more than once a DAY, then it goes back and forth (im still @ just more than once a day)
sometimes you learn by just playing, and i stand by the statement that frame data and a foundation of technical knowledge isnt all it takes to get good (noboy take this the wrong way, cuz i study frames too, but thats only half of it,if that…)
80%percent of the game is application IMO…sorry 'bout the rant, but its time i got great, and not just good or okay…
SRK makes a good school, but the sticks are where you apply it…:wgrin:
I have to say I fall into the Gimmicky pete for Snk games and grumpy old woman for SF Alpha games as I only do Fierce fire ball poke to low fierce sweep.