I am not arguing in favor of balance actually occurring. Ignore the reality of Akuma in SF4 and consider the character just as a concept. A character that has an inherent advantage due to having all the tools necessary to deal with any scenario combined with frame data, hitboxes, hurtboxes, damage, and stun output that result in a real world physical/mental challenge to actually achieve the advantage. This is not a balanced character; it cannot be. Compare this “perfect character” to any other character in the game, assume that player skill is absolutely equal, the “perfect character” in theory wins every time. Now let’s see if anyone can actually achieve this in reality. I love this concept.
I am in favor of that. There is a difference between advantage that is a result of skill and broken.
This thought process is a result of your view of the matchup. You could be completely correct about it; you could be wrong. Trying to find a way to deal with this weakness that you perceive your character to have is part of what makes these games enjoyable. It’s motivation to improve your own skill; it’s motivation just to keep playing in general. The starting point for me would be to try to find a way that I can land enough damage on Akuma to win rounds while avoiding untechable knockdowns. Can I actually achieve this? Let’s find out by actually playing the game.
I honestly don’t care about eSports but I have no problem with the fact that you do. Pro gaming and spectators don’t influence my opinions in any way.
That is a great example of why having those characters in the game makes the game more fun.
Yeah I love Gen! such a unique character. 2 styles would be tough to balance. I think they were going in the right directions with AE. The nerfs were not needed in super. Truth us Gen is dangerous IMO with meter and does have great footsies as well as FA range. The downside is his health and stamina which should balance him out. I’m curious how Capcom will handle Gen since he still is considered low tier and yet players say he is a sleeper or a strong character
Amyu is probably the best Gen player in the world that I’ve seen. I think Capcom should ask his opinion on what Gen needs just to get him more accessible so we can see him in tourney play.
I might be biased towards Gen but I would like to see Gouken, Guy, Abel, and Dudley see some changes as well. I think these characters have really unique styles. And I love characters that have unique styles. I should also Makoto to the list also my favorite of unique styles. It will be interesting to see what will be done her as there players sating she’s a monster. and right there on the edge.
I think we’re on the same page on most of this turns out. And you’re right about the Akuma set-up vs. Hakan, it’s such a difficult situation that it just feels off but it’s not some unblockable set-up that he can never get out of. It, and a few other instances like it with various characters, just feel, “off” I guess. Can’t explain it, there just a weird situation with the battle properties of those two clashing in a weird way and only in that one instance.
I agree with this. Although the best player does not always win in the end. Of course, I can’t really prove this other than to say there is a reason a large majority of the cast is not chosen when the best play the best. If skill difference between the best and the 2nd best may be so small or so inconsequential that character strength will also factor in. Again, I go to an example that has existed in this game. Seth vs Zangief in Super or Vanilla. Especially vanilla where the boom / Ultra 1 trap worked. Poongko playing vanilla Seth vs anyone in the world playing Zangief. Who are you putting your life on?
I’m not asking for a savior. I’m asking for a risk/reward equilibrium, or as close to it as possible. I too, am ok with one character being better than another. You keep bringing player skill into this, I’m negating it. With player skill involved, Daigo or Poongko is probably going to smoke me whoever they use. Finding an answer is great, but what do you do when there is no answer? What do you do when there is minimal risk but a huge reward on one characters part and huge risk but only minimal reward on the other characters part? The type of differential that negates player skill, the type that makes the best players in the world, where skill difference is at a minimal, all basically use the same set of characters because the other characters have deficiencies so glaring that they dare not use them? You just let them keep playing trying to find an answer that doesn’t exist? I’ve played Vanilla Seth and I’ve played Gouken since Vanilla. You think 150 health is a HUGE deal? What is that? One less combo you can take? let me tell you, Vanilla Seth was worse, but it wasn’t that bad once I got that knockdown and started the bullshit with boom to teleport choice of side into another knockdown combined with the boom Ultra trap. Characters started out down 350 life to me to begin with cause of the trap. You yourself say you only play Akuma, try playing a character that has no answer for something. Try Sim vs Yun then tell us how you discovered some magical way to make that matchup winnable. Or come back and tell us you at least see where some people are coming from. Again, I’m not advocating patches or anything, but I understand both sides of the argument, do you? I just happen to have to defend one side at the moment because you are arguing the other.
I’m not interested in true balance, it is not possible. I’m actually not even interested in everyone being good at everything. In fact most of my changes for Gouken (if they even do any, and quite frankly, I’m scared of any changes they might make) specifically revolve around him continuing to have bad wake up. Two of my five changes are just fixes for his current moves/abilities. I wrote a long list but I don’t even agree with most of it, it was just a compilation of the Gouken forum wants.
What I want is for every character to at least be competitive. I’m ok with bad matchups, but when all your matchups are bad… Not even talking about Gouken here.
Does this approach lower the skill necessary to use a character? I don’t know, are you telling me there aren’t people skilled enough in this world to win a major with say Gouken? Cause it seems like you are saying anything is possible with skill.
Dan exists where he is. He is supposed to be terrible, he exists for that purpose. He is a mocking caricature of SNK shoto rip offs. This is not really a valid argument, unless you are trying to argue that the majority of people like sucky characters and should have multiple characters of this sort to choose from. Judging from a small sampling of the whining going on, I think we can say this is not the case.
You are really exaggerating this whole Akuma thing, but I don’t feel like arguing it. He has 50 less health than most of the female characters. Seth was worse before him in Super. At the highest of skill levels, you need to play really well or you lose. Period. Stop thinking that when you win with Akuma you had to play 10 times more efficiently than the guy you beat. You can make mistakes and live.
I wanted to reply sooner but my computer was acting stupid.
None taken dude. Excuse my ignorance, but I’m just not seeing it, and I’ve
been playing him since Vanilla (which imo is his best SF4 incarnation). Here’s
my perception of the character. Not saying it’s correct; just how I’m currently
seeing it.
This dude has two sets of normals. You’d think he’d be the ultimate footsies
character, being the only character who could do any one of his normals
regardless of his range and jump direction, but his reach is short when compared
to other characters like Chun and Vega. His normals seem situational (then
again, what normals don’t), but even when used in their situations, they’re
still not reliable. I haven’t seen his hitbox data in AE, but the ones in Super
are pretty mediocre, with his Mantis s.mk hurtbox extending farther than his
hitbox.
He’s got damaging combos, but aside from the mk hands xx super xx ultra
combo, you have to be standing pretty close to do them, and most good players
won’t let you in that range. So how do you get in with Gen? In Vanilla, his
Crane jump was like a KOF hyper hop, so you could jump in at an angle where it
would be hard or near impossible for a player/character to AA you out of the
sky. The arc made it easier to confuse and mixup the opponent with Gen’s
deceptive normals. Now you sort of inch forward with your decent poke(s) and use
your stance change to alter your walking and jumping attributes in an attempt to
confuse your opponent when you eventually jump in with your high angle jump.
There’s Oga to move you around the screen, but Oga can be spotted and punished.
The recovery time on empty Oga is long enough that you can punish Gen if he’s
close by.
You got characters that play better footsies than him, better rushdown than
him, and better mixups than him, so what does he excel at? Like I said before, I
haven’t seen his AE frame data yet. I know he got two TCs, which is good for
Gen’s who have no problems getting in, but with all the stuff taken away from
Vanilla (short hop, EX invincibility on Oga, Mk hands loop w/o meter, stance
change focus glitch), I don’t see him as an overall threat anymore and I’m not sure what category to classify him in.
Everyone has freedom of choice on the character select screen. At the end of the day the best player wins.
I specifically do not want every character to have an answer for everything (I am not saying that you do either). This is what I am referring to as “turning every character into an Akuma”. I am fine with the fact that some characters must avoid putting themselves in specific situations or else they will get blown up.
I would have no problem with Dhalsim vs. Yun being 10-0 in favor of Yun. I want Dhalsim and Yun to exist as unique characters; I want us to play the game and see what happens. You have to try to find a way to deal with Yun if you have decided to play Dhalsim . If you are unable to do it, then so be it, this is the reality of the game.
It’s up to the players to make the characters competitive. You should switch characters if you consider all your matchups to be bad and your goal is to win.
I am viewing the characters in isolation. I am not redesigning based on matchups.
Option 1: Give the character more tools. The risk associated with this is that all characters start to kind of look the same. The philosophy/concept/template whatever you want to call it associated with the character begins to get lost.
Option 2: Improve the tools that character already has. The risk associated with this is that you have just dripped the character in derp sauce. You just made it easier to use the tools. I am not completely against this option but it is dangerous.
It is absolutely possible for Gouken to win a major. Based on the way that game has gone, I wouldn’t say that it is probable but it is possible. Again, it’s completely up to the players.
Dan couldn’t exist in balanced game. I am not in favor of designing characters based on balance. I am in favor of designing characters based on fun.
The theory behind Akuma is that the character has every option, but those options lack derp. The lack of derp causes you to get punished really hard when you make mistakes. It’s a combination of health/stun and moveset properties that allows the character to exist without being broken.
I stopped reading halfway. I understand your viewpoint, I don’t agree. 10-0? Really? What if every character lost to Yun 10-0? I suppose you’d be ok with it, so long as you didn’t play anyone but Yun.
Fun game bro.
EDIT: better yet, I just made a new character called Sethtwo. He is like vanilla Seth but has 350 hp and does 1500 damage off all of his attacks. You gotta be perfect bro. Find a way around this otherwise you don’t have the required skill to win. His downside is you lose in one combo.
If the Yun player is beating everyone 10-0 for legitimate reasons…actually playing legitimate Street Fighter…not just having bad frame data…then yes, I am all for that.
You’re talking A I’m talking B. I’m done. When you are talking about win/loss matchups you aren’t factoring in player skill, what the fuck is wrong with you? It’s about Daigo vs Daigo theoretically, or Poongko vs Poongko. I can’t waste more time on this.
well, he’s got normals that reach just as far as anything chun or vega have for starters. standing roundhouse, and crouching fierce to be specific. also, his sweep is just shy of that reach, but his is longer than chuns. its probrably his best normal imo, as it will out range most characters focus attacks. 2 frames less negative on block than akuma, but 2 frames slower on start up
it sets up an ambiguous crossup safe jump in crane from almost any range. after gen is in, i dont know that there are better characters for frame trapping. maybe cody because he gets more damage from counterhits and his soft knockdowns set up better oki. but gens got great tools in standing mp and the fiercexxmk target combo that both frame trap into themselves
he also has the 4th best kara throw in the game that sets up safe jumps on every character in the game, unblockables, and safeish oga 50/50s into ultra
gen also builds meter much better in this game than in super, and he probrablly has the best non genei jin super(s) in the game. 1 frame air grab, and pokexxxhandsxxxsuper is the easiest confirm i can think of into 450+. also dont whiff anything when he has full super, he reaches full screen by like the 10th frame after activation. if the player chooses not to save for super, any pokexxxhands goes for 310 and a KD with 2 bars.
his defense is worse without ex oga, but its only slightly worse than a character like chun. she has a better backdash, and ex sbk hits on both sides. gen has to use ex dp which is decent enough for a non fadcable reversal
he may not be the very best at any of his different areas, but he’s still a good character. solid mid tier IMO. his main problem now is a lack of exposure. and half the people playing him, japan included, dont play him solid. they rely on oga gimmicks and crossup bullshit play, and stay in crane which is terrible for everything except cross ups and his best normal AA
I think what you’re asking is sort of impractical. You’re basically asking for everyone in the game to be exactly balanced as soon as the games comes out and I don’t think that’s possible to do in a fighting game. Part of the beauty of a fighting game is that there are things about the game you learn months, sometimes even years, down the line. Also, honestly an EXACTLY balanced game wouldn’t be as fun, I don’t think. I think as long as a character isn’t clearly OP’ed, such as Yun, then that’s a good job.
Super was fine, in my opinion. AE is more imbalanced but I can see why people would complain. A variety of characters is always more fun. I think the formula for Super should be used again in the Ver.2012.
I think the closer to balance it is, the better. I play Hakan, so its not so fun losing 8/10 times. And you could easily say “Oh you just suck” Well thats true I do. But then why can I run circles around the same people I’m playing using Rose or Seth? Yes there’s untapped potential in Hakan but even untapped potential has its limits.
So basically, Hakan does possess viable options to deal with Akuma but you choose to dismiss them (oil, U2), to make a point. Why? If you are given tools, but decide not to use them because they do not fit your style, why should game designers be forced to cater to you? Most other characters do switch ultras depending on match-ups and its become an integral part of the game’s dynamic… Call it a crutch, it’s still there. If you willingly decide to use U1, that is a decision you need to live with.
Because your Hakan is not nearly as good as your Rose/Seth…?
Haha I read that piece and wanted to address it as well.
I don’t even know how to respond to right now because it’s so bewildering. @mrd
You have an option to counter the vortex and refuse to use it (some bs scrub honor code).
You decided to choose that character, you live and die by your choice.
Because you can’t play every match the same (this is what you’re saying), the game is unbalanced and needs to be made so you can vs every character your way? Lol that’s not how it works, YOU adjust to the situation, not ask the devs to adjust the situation to you.
Most fighting games are balanced through variety. The designs of the characters beat some, lose to some, and go even with the rest. If you want to be a character specialist, live and die by that decision. We all put in the same game and have access to the same characters, you pick whoever you want. If your character is bad, put up with it and work hard or switch characters.
I think the problem is, is that the Ultra system was advertised wrong as if Capcom WAS catering to us. Ono and crew said they made 2 so you could “choose” which ones fit your playstyle best. But if your playstyle has to be forced into 1 way of playing (Hakan v Akuma for example) then it defeats the purpose of “choosing who/what you like” and forces you to “choose the counter pick style”. Might as well only have U2 available when you’re Hakan against Akuma. I’m not a huge fan of the Ultras but I use whatever best helps me win, thats usually what most players do. I just wish Ono and Capcom hadn’t made it sound like you could use any Ultra and win, which I guess in essence you can but there’s a reason you never see Ryu with U2 in the finals of tournaments. Yes I realize the other huge reason for 2 ultras was to give characters options, but again, why are so many ultras useless now in Super and in AE? Hakan is one of the lucky few (and I assume by design choice) to have 2 options depending on your opponent.
Yeah you’re probably 100% right here, I just feel like they’re not for some reason.