Magnetro: Thanks for that explanation dude. It helps a lot. All that was pretty much what i expected, except for that bit about a menu and editing capability. I figured that once you mess up, you have to program the whole thing over from the beginning. Is the edit menu on the controller or does it show up on the tv screen or what?
Magnetro - Nice! Thanks for kicking down that info. By the way, I can translate that manual if you can scan it and send to me.
Charge D/B, neutral for one frame, towards for one frame, start charging D/B again, and then count how long you can wait before hitting punch and still get a Sonic Boom. That number comes out to be 10. Then after the Sonic Boom, see how early you can do a Flash Kick. It comes out to be 10 frames earlier than if you don’t use the delayed Sonic Boom method, so overlapping the charges definitely does make a difference, unlike CJF and CvS2.
It’s actually not even something that you need an emulator to test. Ten frames is a pretty long time, so there is a very noticable difference. See the “nitibei” video where Muteki Guile (or was it Kurahashi Guile?) uses delayed charges to shoot out Sonic Booms almost as fast as Choi shoots out Tiger Shots.
<3 BB Hood
Thanks for all that info NKI. Btw, the delayed charging method doesn’t help you throw Sonic Booms any faster. It just gives you more control over interval spacing.
Let’s say you have 300 frames to throw as many Sonic Booms as possible. The maximum number without the delayed method is 5 Sonic Booms and the maximum with the delayed method is still 5 Sonic Booms.
Without the delayed method you charge for 60 frames then throw a Sonic Boom … charge for 60 frames then throw a Sonic Boom …
With the delayed method you charge for 60 frames then wait 10 more frames then throw a Sonic Boom … charge for 50 frames then wait 10 more frames then throw a Sonic Boom …
The difference is that you can skip (and cash in) the 10 extra frames anytime you want, but then you have to charge for full next time. So with the standard method, the intervals between Sonic Booms look like this: 60, 60, 60, 60, 60. With the delayed method you get more flexibility but the sum is still the same: 70, 60, 50, 70, 50 or 70, 50, 65, 65, 50.
The same goes for combos. You can do two charge moves in a combo with 50 frames inbetween by precharging earlier in the combo, or you can do three charge moves in a combo with 55 frames inbetween. But you can’t do three charge moves 100 frames apart without making up for the lost frames somewhere along the way.
I’m sure you know most of this stuff already, but it’s a common mistake. Also there’s no shorthand way of bringing it up - gotta explain the whole thing every time it needs to be mentioned.
Cool thread. Where can I get this vid? I’m interested to see it.
Emu macros question: For some reason ST macros are all sorts of unreliable. SFA2 doesn’t have that problem. But using the same macro thrice will work one out of three times in ST and i can’t figure out the problem. I’m talking about simple macros too - just something like charging and throwing a Sonic Boom (normal or delayed). What the hell is going on?
this blew my mind when I first read it! 
has anyone seen the latest insanity DVD? there’s a clip on there of guile doing immpossible charge combos with ‘1/512 (then some japanese I can’t read)’ written at the bottom of the screen. I’m not sure if they’ve actually been able to exploit this or if they’re just doing no charge combos to show what would be possible.
Does anyone have any more info on this?
Just curious. If all that matters in a video is creativity, I’m lost. It seems to me that with a machine like Japanese combo makers use, the creativity is lost. It’s all math. From the most basic to the most complicated combos it would only come down to the equation. I suppose creativity can come in with other elements like using opposing attacks to cause hit stun for recovery and the like but, otherwise, I don’t see how creativity is helped in the least. Of course, a machine can help to perform what one thinks up but, the math does it all. There’s no need to be creative.
I hope I’m making sense.
For me, personally, what makes a combo video used to be the skill and the practicality in a competitive situation. Of course, I would watch as a player and not a combovideo maker but…who are the vids made for in the first place?
Very interesting thread btw.
Apoc.
Before Kawaks was able to do this a friend and I hacked up mame to have similiar functionality. It was to see if Valle CC’s in A2 could be reversal DP’d (they can, though there’s only a 4! frame window). We came up with some funny A3 combos, though nothing really practical. He later put in a feature for ST that would flash the screen while Chun had her super “stored” in ST, then jump around fighting the CPU and see how long you could keep it. Thanks for the link to the bisqwit site, never seen it before.
There are severe limits to competitive combos in any game. I can do a 43 hit combo with Chipp in GGXX, but I’d rather do a 12 hit super fast, high damage combo… which is more impressive? Relaunching the character into a ridiculous string, or doing a basic combo? Regarding the “math” aspect… all combos are “math” if you broke them down perfectly, so I hardly see how using a programmable joystick changes anything except the beginning process of the combo. The human is still coming up with the combo, not the machine. It’s only purpose is to control the game perfectly 100% of the time.
Look at a video like Magnetro’s most recent video, or KYSG’s… can you honestly say that due to the use of a programmable controller, you’re “limiting” creativity? I personally feel that it’s the other way around! If you are bound by human reactions and skill, those combos would take years to simply do one of. I absolutely love the creative potential using a programmable joystick uses, because it allows you to break down every possible situation perfectly.
Regarding the practically of using it, It’s not. Watching a superplay or a speedrun, or a combo video with a programmable joystick is not about being practical, because practical is boring. Any beginner can make a combo video showing off basic, competitive combos… but what happens when it’s all tapped dry? What happens when there’s 9 one frame links in a combo, but it does 90% damage? Do you just repeat the combo for days, weeks, months? I feel that by using a programmable controller, it’s the most efficent manner of reaching a goal.
@_@ back to fps.
But who does the math? I mean, we all have access to the same numbers as Japan does, whether or not we use programmable controllers. Even if we don’t have exact frame data (as with older games like ST), by now pretty much everyone knows exactly what links into what. So beyond that, it’s just a matter of thinking of new things to do with the numbers.
Haven’t you ever seen a combo video and thought to yourself, “Damn, why didn’t i think to try that?” Like you knew of all of the pieces but you never thought to arrange them in that particular way. That’s creativity. That’s what i look for.
Combo videos and competitive tactics are not the same thing. It’s interesting because it kind of mirrors math vs physics in the real world. Mathematicians keep coming up with all of these abstract concepts that nobody can find a use for, and everyone is always like “Uh, why would anyone care?” Like when math first started getting into imaginary numbers and nobody could find a practical use for any of it, but then 200 years later when physicists discovered electricity suddenly all of that math became super useful. So i guess you could split it up into three groups of people.
- Those who only care about shit that’s practical right now.
- Those who are looking for obscure shit that might at some point become practical.
- Those who are looking for obscure shit simply for the sake of looking/understanding.
The fact is that 90% of the practical combos ever used in the life of a fighting game are discovered in the first month. But there’s still interesting stuff to discover even if most people don’t care about it. Like when i first made my website, i knew i was basically making it for 5 people, all of whom i knew. I figured there were maybe a few more out there that i didn’t know, and i’ve met a few more people over the years that share the same viewpoints. So to answer your question, yes some combo videos are made for combo video makers. Most of the time we try to be flashy to entertain everyone else, but there are definately some combos in TZW/meikyo/Sai-Rec/kysg videos that only a handful of people will ever appreciate.
Another important point here is that most practical combos are easy, straightforward, and predictable. Like i said, they show up in the first month. But to me, that translates into: “The game designers/testers knew about them.” I’m not interested in that. I’m interested in making my own combos. Ones that the game designers didn’t even know existed in the game engine they coded. And unfortunately, doing that usually requires the stuff that happens on the one-frame level using obscure setups to create unusual situations.
So now the question becomes: If nobody is gonna try doing this shit in a real match anyway, then why should doing it by hand be a requirement to getting respect for having created something? Maybe you don’t understand what it’s like for people like me. We straight up spend ELEVEN HOURS on the same goddamn combo doing it over and over and over so that we’ll get lucky and it’ll work once while we’re recording it. We’ve already done all of the creating before we even sit down to try and record it. We’ve taken apart the engine, tested out all of the pieces of the combo, tried a billion other things to look for improvements, and all that remains is to put it all together so it can go in a video. That last step fucking sucks, and i’ve gotten to a point where i don’t wanna do it anymore. ST/A3/CvS2/MvC2 aren’t new games anymore. 99% of the stuff that can be done by hand has already been done. It’s easy for someone like tragic to do everything by hand because he never makes videos after the game has been out for a month or two. But can i help it if i don’t give a shit about week one combos?
I mean, not to get all extreme or anything, but i get these combo ideas while i’m driving or whatever, and they’re stuck in my head trying to get out. I have to do them one way or another, sooner or later. Even if it takes me a year to find the time to do it, it’s pretty rare for someone else to get the same idea and put it in a video before me. Let’s say i had the same idea at the same time TZW did, and i tested it out piecewise and verified that it would work. So then i sacrifice two days to just performing this combo and because of the standards i’ve set for myself, it’s so complicated that i essentially have to get lucky to get it to work. I gradually get better at doing the pieces, but it still comes down to luck to get it all to work. Anything easier than that is just not good enough for me. On the other hand, TZW gets to sit down and do this part in under an hour and he even gets to test out a bunch of variations that i can’t even hope to do by hand. Does he deserve credit/respect for making that same combo? Of course he does, because he came up with the same idea. I can’t say that i deserve credit and he doesn’t. Is it fair that i have to compete with him? Fuck no! It’s kind of a fine line but that’s how i see things these days.
interesting!
I got a question to ask. How would I go about purchasing one of these programmable pads/sticks. I need one for the ps2 so I can try and make combos for my Vampire Darkstalkers Collection strat faq. NKI, Majestros, BB Hood, anyone. Thanks in advance.
[Mario G]
Ask joo. =p
Nobody can find those things anymore. I’ve just started looking for one and everyone i ask tells me to give up. From what i understand, the last time Hori made programmable controllers was the Command Stick for the PS1. So all those recent tool-assisted console videos you see recently are actually using PS1-to-whatever converters. The only person who has had any luck finding them is Magnetro2k and i’m sure he’s sick of people bugging him about it.
Once again, if you can get joo to actually say more than one word to you you could probably get hooked up.
Really…
I’m interested to know how you came to that conclusion. When I tested out Valle CC’s, I seem to remember the defender not being able to move at all for some 10 frames after the attacker can move, but I didn’t test it very thoroughly.
The only chance you have is getting one from Japan through an online auction. You will need a bank account in Japan though and you need to know what to type in order for the Program Pad to come up when you search. Good Luck in your search.
If you live near to manetro2k ask him to borrow his. joo told me it was his controller and he sent it over here to be ‘shared’.
His english isn’t that great so who knows what he meant for sure, but hit up manetro2k.