I didn’t know about the infinite but I’m pretty sure I told you he hands out stuns easier than ST Akuma.
If I had to guess it’s due to his bad normals and slow specials. He takes a lot of work to get good with as well.
Also the high tiers pretty much blow him apart.
Ok this IS obscure!
[quote=“Hanzo_Hasashi, post:2023, topic:175120”]
Ok this IS obscure!
[/quote]It’s just me, or that hadouken thing P1 was throwing was something like -30 on hit? At point blank dude was still recovering while his opponent was already back to idle animation.
Yes it seems unsafe on hit LOL
Here’s a tierlist for Pro Wrestling on the NES. It’s a very easy game to figure out:
The strongest throws are the Piledriver, the Side Suplex, and Brain Buster. The Piledriver and Brain Buster are unlocked once a set damage flag gets reached (rougly indicated by sound cues, albeit poorly). The first flag unlocks Piledriver/Brain Buster, the second signals when the opponent is in critical condition. The general idea is to land 3 Side Suplexes, 2 Piledrivers, then 1/2 stronger throws into the pin. Slowly regenerating health and good mashing will offset this, but still. It’s possible to use Brain Buster after only 2 Side Suplexes–but only if done very quickly before their HP recovers. You can’t do this for Piledriver, for some reason–and if you manually hit the sound cue, they’re open season. So strange.
Some characters have always-available throws instead of Piledriver, and not everyone has Side Suplex. Since characters are near-universally differentiated by their throws, it’s pretty easy to rank them based on whether they have this arrangement (listed in order within their tiers):
A - Fighter Hayabusa, King Slender
B - Kin Corn Karn
C - Starman
D - The Amazon, Giant Panther
[details=Spoiler]Fighter Hayabusa: Strong simply because he keeps the Side Suplex and Piledriver. Back Brain Kick is pretty bad, since it hurts him if it whiffs, does poor damage (6 to reach a damage flag, 4 for hasty Brain Buster), and is easy to counter (he must be below you; go to the bottom of the ring). Still, it only activates in situations where no other character can even attack, and there are ways to set it up–a welcome option when a good opponent can mash out of an attempted grab. As such, it’s a bonus on top of the powerful base movelist.
Hayabusa is weird because, since there are no mirror matches, Player 1 can always pick him should he so choose. On the other hand, Player 2 Hayabusa gets a small advantage because he starts below you.
King Slender: Same stock movelist as Hayabusa, so they’re roughly equal. Though it looks powerful, his Backbreaker is seemingly identical in strength to the Side Suplex. Its positioning is better, but ultimately it’s redundant (unlike Hayabusa’s risky bonus). Still nice to have since it doesn’t replace anything.
Kin Corn Karn: Sort of a dark horse. He keeps the standard Side Suplex/Piledriver arrangement, and is the only character with different normals. These normals are quite powerful–nearly three times as damaging as the usual punch/kick–but they’re incredibly awkward. That said, the damage is worth it if you can figure out the timing during oki to rack up free damage. If you’re confident with his normals, KCK is equal (potentially superior) to Hayabusa/Slender.
Starman: His replacement for the Piledriver does lousy damage, and his Flying Cross Chop is actually weaker than the standard Clothesline, making him a strict downgrade compared to the higher tiers–but if played optimally, this never comes up. He keeps Side Suplex, so he can still reasonably achieve Brain Buster.
The Amazon: He replaces both Side Suplex and Piledriver with biting and forks. These both do the same damage, and take 4 to hit the flag (3 for Brain Buster if you’re fast). It’s a noticeable downgrade before Piledriver. A cool character, but one for flavour.
Giant Panther: Figures that the Hulk Hogan mimic is this bad. His Side Suplex replacement (Iron Claw) does the same damage as Amazon’s, but his Piledriver replacement takes 8 to hit the flag (though if you’re fast, you can reach Brain Buster with only 4). Knowing this, you can just stick to Iron Claw, making him effectively equal to Amazon.[/details]
EDIT: Did some more experimentation with the throws. The damage flags are odd, is all I can say. Added some comments to reflect this.
And no projectile collision… and the other guy still took damage despite earning the KO.
Damn we should have a thread devoted to matches/combos/gamepkay of obscure/shitty fighters.
I don’t believe in tier list. They are all based on opinion.
Back with a stinker: M.U.S.C.L.E. for the NES. This is another game that’s depressingly easy to figure out.
Movement is okay (movement in all directions, jumping left/right), but there’s only like two attacks. You’re aiming to get a knockdown, since there’s no blocking–guaranteed followups everywhere. It happens to be very easy to get a knockdown, as literally every attack does so. As you get low on health, you begin to walk incredibly slowly, making defeat all but certain. This makes speed critical, since getting behind the opponent or reaching your corner to tag is way easier. The special ball, once thrown, goes in the direction of the underdog–be sure to position for this, whether to maximize your advantage or to turn around a bad match (specials deal a shitload of damage and heal the recipient).
Characters are extremely similar, only differentiated by movement speed (in three tiers), attack damage (in three tiers), and special setup. Specials all deal the same damage (approx. 3 uses will KO, save for one), so any that don’t require maneuvering around the opponent have an advantage. Characters listed in approximate order within their tiers:
S - Warsman, Buffaloman
A - Robin Mask, Ashuraman
B - Ramenman
C - Terryman, Kinnikuman
D - Geronimo
[details=Spoiler]
Warsman: With the fastest walkspeed, high damage, and a lightning-fast fullscreen special, Warsman is indisputably the best.
Buffaloman: Third fastest, high damage, and another ranged rush special. Barely a downgrade from Warsman.
Robin Mask: Same speed as Buffaloman. Average damage, and his special requires being behind the opponent. The drop from the S tier to A tier is pretty severe.
Ashuraman: Second fastest to Warsman, but low damage and another special that’s done behind the opponent. Consider him a variant of Robin Mask.
Ramenman: Fourth fastest, low damage. Has a long-range rush special, but it oddly requires jumping first–and in this game, whiffing a jump kick or rope attack deals damage to you. This means a knockdown and potentially losing the whole match, so while Ramenman has decent statistics he puts a lot on the line.
Terryman: Fifth fastest. High damage, but his poor speed and awkward special leave much to be desired.
Kinnikuman: Suguru should have trained harder: the second-slowest character, with average damage and a special done from behind. Definitely shouldn’t be your first choice (how fitting).
Geronimo: I feel bad for Brocken fans. Not only was he replaced by Geronimo in the US version, he’s the worst character in the game by far. The slowest character in the game, with low damage and a terrible special. Even though it gives him a projectile, it can only shoot left or right, and the damage is pitiful. There are so many things going against this character it’s not even funny.[/details]
The funny thing is, despite the paper-thin strategy and borked character balance, it’s still possible for someone like Geronimo to beat Warsman thanks to the outrageously one-sided design of the combat.
- the longsword hitbox when paired against wise stance weapons is a joke afte the initial strike begins.
- tony can do everything that the ninjas can do and has better weapon/stance combinations than either red shadow or stalker.
- talkign about the longsword, highwayman(lotus) has the best moveset in the entire game including the <+O,O backstep lunge which is redicultous.
- the gun characters are a joke. outrunning their shooting with ninja run is fine but u can also parry bullets…with any character in the game. on top of that, if u swipe the reload arm the match is pretty much over.
- the game is far from being clear cut since the majority of it revolves around parry retorte system and the hit collision is so busted up. clean hits on anyone with a pulse is very rare / random so the backstabs you describe are unrealistic measure of how good a character is.
Yeah, I realized after a while that anything in this game can be parried, including backstab.
Disregard my tier list. This game is whack.
So I’ve got a couple of obscure games that haven’t been put through their paces…
Maybe someone remembers Battle Capacity, which I put out a few years ago.
It had a very small, but dedicated, playerbase, and a hazy concept of its tiers were developed, but nothing most people could ever agree on. If you like, you might have fun exploring the characters and developing a tier list. There were patches maybe two or three times a year (as new characters were added) and since the final patch in 2013, I’m fairly convinced my test team and I have put together a super differentiated but balanced roster!
Then there’s this more [overtly Pokemon-y game](Leaving this Pokemon fighter on the curb This was more a joke that kind of grew into a hobby. Since BatCap, I’d developed a real addiction to creating fighters and what started as some ironic spritework of the Hitmons became a 20+ character game.
The sounds and stages aren’t really developed, but the characters are fully fleshed out. Unlike Battle Capacity, this one was never put through any competitive rigours. There’s likely a lot of stupid shit since I was just out to make something fun but never got any feedback. Maybe you can sort out a tier list because you’re actually really good at identifying the traits that make or break a fighter in a bubble?
online play exists for both oc…
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Tier list for Dong Dong Never Die?
Tiers for Double Dragon V:
Jaguar Version
lol
SNES Version
S-Billy/Jimmy
A-Sekka, Dominique, Icepick
B-Everyone else
This game doesn’t favour regular projectile use. The name of the game is normals, and in that respect the Lees dominate. MP is an incredible poke, easily among the longest in the game. It’s fast, too, so it’s great for tagging people out of projectile startup and all sorts of other stuff. Their cr.HP is like a Mexican Uppercut on crack, and alongside HK their anti-air game is strong–anyone hoping to jump over MP is sorely mistaken.
Additionally, the SNES version’s dizzy timers work strangely; this greatly benefits the Lees. Their j.HP has a large downward hitbox and is difficult to anti-air, and j.HP, HK is a guaranteed dizzy. This will guarantee another j.HP and will continually redizzy. Some good buttons and the redizzy make the Lees crazy good. Their main downside is their throw, as it takes ages to recover (and this downside is exacerbated in the corner). Throws in general aren’t very good here, and the Lees get the worst of it. They have a projectile and Dragon Spin goes over lows, but they’re not great either.
Sekka and Dominique benefit from fast movement, good anti-air, and guaranteed throws from hit or blockstun (Dominique’s bite throw does craploads). The SNES version’s frame data and air reset system allow Dominique to anti-air with MK directly into cr.HK for a CE Dhalsim-style juggle. Other characters can do this, but Dominique’s is among the stronger examples. Icepick is like a ghetto Lee with worse buttons, better zoning and a possible corner redizzy.
Of the lower tiers, Countdown gets an honourable mention for having a strong throw. It launches the opponent very high, allowing time for easy-peasy meaty j.HK tick throws in the corner.
Genesis Version
Still in flux. Of the three versions, this one’s probably the best. Dizzy timers seem better (no redizzies), frame data is a bit better (some links are easier), controls are smoother (unwieldy inputs aside, it’s easier to use projectiles), and blockstun is…totally screwy. Unlike the other versions, there is no fixed blockstun: any attack can be blocked for just the first active frame of an attack, giving this version a somewhat primitive parry system. Thanks to these ‘parries’, multi-hit attacks are more useful (forcing the opponent to parry each hit), and projectiles are more useful to impede their approach. Throws also become more useful as a result.
Some quirks from the SNES version are absent here, like Countdown’s high-flying corner throw.
Awesome to know the differences between the GEN and SNES versions. They are not like TMNT TF differences different games) but enough to warrant a look. I had lots of vs play when I got it on release but really disliked the Jab shenanigans with Sekka, and yes I remember the Lees re dizzies, and in factm other variation is J.HP, C.HP (2 hits) repeat.
Was the Jaguar one that shitty? Never played it. But the youtube vids give me the impression of a MORE shitty collision detection.
EDIT: NVM about the JAG verson, really LOL
Yeah the Jag version’s a hunk of ass.
Sekka’s jab is good, but her s.LK is just outrageous. If she works you to the corner it’s bad news bears (and she has a special like Raiden’s flight that gets you there fast). As for the Lees, I couldn’t get j.HP, cr.HP to dizzy consistently. Still good.
Countdown may be worth putting higher on a GEN tierlist–the looser windows for specials make his zoning and anti-air 214HP way more effective.
That video reminds me: another thing going for the Genesis version is walkspeeds, or more accurately a reduction to them. The difference between forward and backward walkspeed is much more severe in the SNES version. Forward walkspeed is just stupid fast, making approaches super basic when combined with the crappy zoning. The GEN forward speed is reduced a bit.
(Another quirk in the SNES version: Icepick’s throw has big knockback unless you’re in the corner. But if you connect with an attack first–like cl.MK–the knockback is practically doubled. Zero clue why.)
Just about the only thing going for the SNES version is the soundtrack–but at least it’s not on the Jaguar.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that mixups are a non-factor in determining character strength, on account of the tick throws, zero reversals and near-total lack of overheads. This is one of “those” games, where a late jump-in can hit low and some mids hit low in their early hitboxes or vice-versa. Down-backing mitigates this, as does the GEN version’s parries. Only SNES Countdown has anything going on in that department, and even then only in the corner, particularly against Bones.
Thx for the post, and yes, in fact, the redizzy I did on those days was FIRST J.FP, C.HP then your variant (J.FP, FK). SOrry for that, it as a long time ago.
This game has absolutely no cancles/2 in 1 right? I just booted it up on an emulator and quick compared the 3 versions, I really never knew about the zero block stun on the Gen version. Its really like a different game. Reminded me of Killer Instinct 1 (both arc and snes).
I remember that the charge back f+P Lee proyectiles are weird to get, so you HAVE to go charge back, foward, NEUTRAL then P.
Also only MP/MK are throw buttons?
I love Trigger Happy in this game, his DP looks vicious and CPU does a Flame Punch thing that seems an always sure AA.
EDIT: There was a no dizzy code for this game haha I remember we used it sometimes when playing.
EDIT 2: LoL this game had fatalities XD
Any tier list for Street Fighter: The Movie: The Game arcade version?
Sadly, no. It really puts the kibosh on using specials, especially when they’re so awkward in the first place.
These oddities are more pronounced in the SNES version. The GEN version actually has a remarkable amount of input storing. Try it with Countdown’s 214HP–he can enter 214, walk back nearly half screen, press HP and still get it. You can also buffer 214 in the animation to do them back-to-back. His air coverage is really good thanks to 214HP and 632HK, and the GEN version’s controls make it easier for him to use them.
Character-specific, but yeah. Usually MP, sometimes MK.
EDIT: Icepick can use MP or HP. Why? That’s a good question.
His DP has really good startup (I swear up and down he can link into it in the GEN version), but its value is dependent on the game. In the SNES version it’s worse because air resets end up much closer–depending on button strength and anti-air height he can end up at a disadvantage. In the GEN version, air resets knock you back nearly full screen, which makes his HP version’s damage worth it. His Blanka-style electricity might be a really good way to mess up parry attempts. Trigger Happy is one of the few characters where putting points into Special could actually be useful.
By ‘flame punch’ I’m guessing you mean 214MP–that flaming backfist thing. At the right distances, it’s a great poke and anti-air (and since it’s a special, it can do savage damage), but the best anti-air in the GEN version is probably blocking. Block any aerial for a frame and respond with any attack you choose. Makes the GEN version more interesting, since empty-jump throws are a counter to anti-air parries.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that specials in the SNES version with no difference in button strength are often confined to one button on the GEN version.
I only remember that Akuma is tops because of his infinite(s?) and strong projectile game. In tournament play I see a lot of Honda, Sagat, Blade, and Zangief, so I assume at least one of them is decent.