Tick throw question

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
21

Dunno i am just going by experience and Ockhams Razor.
I might be wrong. I am merely doing it because i strongly dislike VF4 and his squirming in trying to avoid answering that question is so much fun.
Since he has been avoiding it ever since he got called out on it in the “hate hdr thread”.
His avoiding of it actually being noticed by numerous people to the point that he actually left the thread.

I have no qualifications and i have never ever been to a gathering i also have no understanding about how arguing works in this specific thread.

How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?

22

Even when someone agrees with your position (me), you still attack them. You got some serious issues bud. I would suggest you seek some therapy.

It doesn’t matter how long ST has been played, because without empirical evidence, it’s just your opinion vs my opinion.

What Shari said is **exactly **what the ST Wiki says:

"Reversing Tick Throws

These are very effective techniques because the defender only has one frame of advantage. Timing anything with the precision of one frame is pretty difficult. The frame in question is the reversal frame, your first frame of neutral state. The defender can go directly into any attack (a normal move, a throw, a special move, or a super) without ever going to neutral (throwable) state. However,** if the defender does not take advantage of the reversal**, the attacker and the defender have equal opportunity to throw each other. (If both characters throw on the exact same frame, it is completely random who does the throw and who gets thrown.) "

Actually the ST Wiki seems confused, and seems to say that the defender does have an advantage **and **that it’s **also **50-50. Quick VFF, do the only thing that you’re actually good for and edit the ST Wiki. Can’t you even get this one thing right?

Not that I agree with the ST Wiki, I don’t think there is a frame of advantage after coming out of hitstun/blockstun or after resets. This is why I think it’s always 50-50 if both players throw each other on the first frame after hitstun/blockstun. It would be different if the defender did an invincible-on-startup reversal attack, which would make the defender unthrowable, since the 1st frame after hitstun/blockstun would be invincible. However, reversal throws on the 1st frame after blockstun do not have the same invincibility as reversal throws on the 1st frame after wakeup. And if the attacker throws the defender on the same 1st frame, who’s to say that the defender will always win? However, if there was empirical evidence proving that the 1st frame is invincible regardless of what the defender does, same as it is on wakeup, then I would agree with that. Or if there was empirical evidence proving that the 1st frame is not invincible, then I would agree with that too, as that lines up with my experience of reversal throws being 50-50.

This is why empirical evidence trumps anybody’s opinion (including mine or anybody else).

23

Scroll through the Wiki and see whose name you see often after some sections. Hint: it’s mine. The ST wiki was and still is filled with BAD and WRONG information. Until people edit it the Wiki will remain unfortunately that way. The ST Wiki said that you couldn’t struggle out of holds without taking damage which is false so I edited it. The Wiki also said that O.Ken wasn’t better than N.Ken which is quite wrong. The Kara section was extremely outdated and I added a bunch of stuff to that as well. I’ve taken the time to clean up parts of the Wiki but there is still a ton left to be done. And the language in the Wiki is also often vague and unspecific to the point where nothing conclusive can be taken from it.

Tomorrow, or maybe tonight, I’ll edit the reversal section of the Wiki so that it is actually correct.

24

Great idea.
Because it has clearly been shown that your opinion on this matter is fact and therefore the Wiki should be edited to conform to your opinion.

How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?

25

Don’t bother. Without empirical evidence, it will never be “correct”.

26

As for ST

I have tested on the Japanese version with macros. Ryu vs Gief and Ryu vs Honda. Reversal SPD beats a perfect short tick into fierce throw every time, and such perfect tick-throw beats reversal oicho almost every time. Only when oicho wins the reversal message is shown.

Here is what I have used:


Macro1Name=Oicho
Macro1Move=D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,R,R+D,D,D+L,D+L,D+L+3,D+L,D+L+3,D+L,D+L+3,D+L,D+L,D+L+3
Macro2Name=Perfect tick
Macro2Move=D+4,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,F+3

and


Macro1Name=SPD
Macro1Move=D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,D+B,R,R+D,D,D+L,L,U+3,D,D+3,D,D+3,D,D,D+3,D,D+3
Macro2Name=Perfect tick
Macro2Move=D+4,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,D,F+3

I would activate both macros at the same time.

27

[media=youtube]6i1TPQQ_AVA[/media]

If anyone still thinks that there is a magic frame for the ‘defender’ when they are ticked then watch NKI’s video. You see Guile go from stun directly into being thrown by an SPD. There is no magic neutral frame where he is standing where he would have a chance to counter throw someone. NKI even says ‘no frames in between’. Is this hard enough evidence for everyone?

28

I just want to emphasize I have tested SPD as the reversal attack, not the offensive, non-counter throw. It shouldn’t be hard to test Ryu’s fierce throw as the counter one, but it’s late in my country and I gotta call it a night.

Anyway, apparently, Gief’s special throw seems to have some precedence Honda’s does not against Ryu’s fierce throw.

29

Thanks for the tests oldschool_BR. Yes, this is exactly what you need to test. SPD, Typhoon and Ochio tick throws being beaten/not beaten by normal reversal throws. Although it is fascinating that reversal SPD can beat a tick throw attempt, but not reversal Ochio. When you put your findings together with Thelo’s tests, it seems to be that Ochio is at a disadvantage vs normal throws. I would’ve expected the opposite to be true. But yeah, I’m eagerly awaiting any further tests you do. Thanks again.

First of all, that video has nothing to do with reversal throws. Only reversal attacks. NKI purposefully showed Guile remaining in crouch blockstun in order to demonstrate what will happen if no reversal Somersault was executed by Guile. Therefore, there would be no “standing, neutral” frame.

Second of all, even if Guile had attempted a reversal throw, you wouldn’t see him standing up first and then throwing. It would be immediate, from crouching to throwing. Why? Cuz if NKI used programmed inputs (which I think he did), then the game will allow you to throw on the 1st frame after blockstun, and you wouldn’t even see the defender standing up. If we’re talking about human inputs, then yeah, the defender will stand up before throwing. But that does not mean there is a “standing, neutral” frame before all reversal throws.

Stop spreading bad information.

30

Wrong. Guile is in crouching stun because he needs downward charge to execute a flash kick which is the premise of the video. Try again. :woot:

Shari said that there is a special frame where someone is standing after being ticked where they can freely counter throw and beat a tick throw. A ‘reversal frame’. But that frame only occurs after getting up from being knocked down as evidence by T.Akiba’s frame information. NKI’s video shows that you go from stun into a throwable state with NO IN BETWEEN FRAMES. You don’t get a special reversal frame like when you wake up after being knocked down. The ‘special frame’, where you could freely reversal throw out of stun, doesn’t exist as evidenced by NKI’s video.

NKI says you go from stun to throwable without an inbetween frames. There isn’t stun, special frame, throwable frame. Stop spreading bad information. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

That means that reversal normal throws, done in a mirror match off of a tick setup, are 50/50.

31

Yes that is absolutely what i said verbatim and i am sure that if people looked trough the thread they would find the post where i said exactly that.

How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?

32

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

33

I have to agree with you.

These two quotes are exactly verbatim the same.
You are clearly a genius.

How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?

34

Then explain what makes reversal throws out of stun ALWAYS WIN.

You seem to be playing a magical version SFII that no one else on the planet plays. LOL.

35

I have to admit i have secretly been using a hacked version of HDR where when someone says Verbatim they don’t actually mean the dictionary definition of Verbatim which would be:

?adverb
1.
in exactly the same words; word for word: to repeat something verbatim.
?adjective
2.
corresponding word for word to the original source or text: a verbatim record of the proceedings.
3.
skilled at recording or noting down speeches, proceedings, etc., with word-for-word accuracy: a verbatim stenographer.

But what they really mean is what can possibly be reasoned to be true from the intended meaning of a phrase or sentence.

If i were in anyway close to as intelligent as you are i would reason that what makes reversal throws win out of “Stuns” is the game engine.
But as i am clearly not in your intellectual league i would never reach that conclusion.

How is your NY gathering participation going btw ?

36

oldschool_BR, which programs exactly did you use? I tried replicating this with Nebula and Kawaks (which I know can use macros), but none of them seems reliable. Nebula’s frameskip skips a bunch of frames at once instead of a single one, for starters.

But even more worryingly, in both emulators, I tried using this “Perfect tick” macro with Zangief, so he would do low short -> normal fierce throw (in Zangief mirror), but the game sometimes makes that an actual tick throw, and sometimes makes him do low short -> command hop. In other words, the macro’s timing seemed variable. Yes, I set the game to Turbo 0. It seems that both of these emulators have extra variance with their macros, so you’re probably using another one I’m not aware of?

37

A word of warning with macro programs. I used AutoIt on Maj’s recommendation (well, an article he wrote), but he said the problem with it is that even if you set it up right it’s impossible to get the inputs to execute at the exact same time.

I made a simple macro for Ken vs Ken to throw eachother. I wrote it so that the throw commands should have been sent on the same frame. On my first test it looked like player 1 would always win the throw if the throws were executed on the same frame. I swapped the commands round (keeping them on the same frame) and the opposite happened. If ST’s throws really are random when pressed at the same time, then it seems it’s not possible to test this with AutoIt.

Who won the throw came down to whoever input the command first, even though it was executed within the same frame. I wouldn’t trust AutoIt for testing things like tick throw reversals and stuff yet. I’d speak to Maj first to get his input and to see if he figured out a way round it (I think he did).

On the other hand, I find this problem strange. I thought the game would only poll for inputs at regular 1/60 second intervals meaning that if something was executed within a specific frame, that it would be impossible for someone to input it earlier or later, unless it was input a frame earlier or later.

For example say if something was executed 1667ms into the game (100th frame) and another was input at 1675ms (still the 100th frame but 8ms later). The second throw input seems to lose to the first, even though it is in the same frame. I thought the game would only be as accurate to 16.6ms and that if these were input at these times that you would get a random throw since they were executed in the same frame (so how late on in the frame is irrelevant as it only polls at 16.6ms). That was my theory.

38

I’m observing a range of frame rates roughly 59.84 fps to 60.15 fps between HDR, SFIV and SSFIV a TV, and my Computer Monitor (all on XBox 360).

For HDR and similar games you can test your frame accuracy by doing what I call a wiggle test - with ken, go foward for 2 frames, and backward for 3, then repeat 1000 times or so. If your timing is dialed in well, Ken will be stationary. If your timing is off, he’ll most likely weave and wiggle.

…this will probably bug me until I test it myself too…:wonder:

39

what about a test using normal throws vs normal throws?

40

So then, it seems a possible variable is that the rounding of precisely when a throw command is entered definitively with the button press may go up or down, depending. This is very interesting. It could also explain why Gief’s SPD always wins, because he has more active grab frames which cover the entire window in question. Good luck with more testing, team!