Thoughts on Balance Patching in SF4 and other fighters

[AlzPatz]

Not really, the guy you quoted is just in denial that a imbalance problem can exist. For the most part his idea of what balance isn’t probably even close to what the word balance means. In the case of mmos (with the exception of Guild Wars), there really are very obvious balance problems. Like xxx class being able to obliterate xxx class without much effort. What the guy you are quoting is saying is that is ok for this to happen, but if you learn to accept it and then you can deal with it better and build up a artificial belief that everything is fine and dandy!

If SF4 was balanced then tiers wouldn’t exist and every character would have a 5-5 chance to beat one another. But everyone knows this is not the case. I’m not saying SF4 is bad as it is, but to say this game is balanced is only fooling yourself. The only game I’ve ever seen that is balanced is Guild Wars. And thats due to its unique pvp system.

Hi Dreammystic, I hope you don’t take this the wrong way and no disrespect, but i think you need to re-read his post.

“to say this game is balanced is only fooling yourself”

Be careful, he is saying the game is not imbalanced enough to make patching worthwhile, this is very different. at no point is anyone claiming balance.

“You don’t patch fighting games unless something is clearly unbeatable…If you are hoping to achieve balance, gl. …There is really absolutely no reason to patch this game especially since there is no overtly dominant character…everyone agrees that sagat is the best character but he certainly loses a lot of tournaments”

This is obviously not someone claiming balance, nor is it someone who is completely dismissing patching or building " up a(n) artificial belief that everything is fine and dandy".

In addition, the game is so new and to start patching so early and at a stage where really lots of characters can be played competitively would be a shame.

EDIT : Just to make clear i dont agree with

“If they made the arcade and home release different regarding the arcade characters I’d sell my copy the next day, it would no longer have a purpose as a practice tool which is its only purpose to begin with.”

as i am one of those dirty and disgusting people that admittedly play mainly on console. i visit chocodero and casino in london when i can but i have most fun sitting with a couple of mates for an entire weekend playing each other or taking it in turns online…sorry!!! i intend to enter tourneys in the future and take the game very seriously, but im not going to pretend that i can play at the top level where i can make proper balance observations. Perhaps then i shouldnt post on this thread, but the reason i did is that it doesnt take top skill to realise that its too early to start changing things (if you listen, read and watch top players alot).

also, of course it would be a shame if arcade diverged from console, but i wouldnt throw my TE in the bin, its still a fun game at home

FINAL EDIT: just to cover the bases, i know arcade and console are not identical (obv diff characters and the arguably very slight changes to move inputs (Fuerte infinite), i just mean it would be ashame for significant divergence.

[AaronS]

I don’t understand why anyone would not want the chance of victory to be equal for every character.

Again, I know SF4 is amazingly well balanced compared to every other fighter I can think of, but it is by no means perfect.

Why do people not want it to be perfect?

[SimpleKiss]

Actually… there has only been one, MAYBE two real gameplay changes to StarCraft online. Nearly all of the patches were to fix exploitable glitches or to lock out hacks. Even with Brood War, those units had maybe one or two changes later to solve other unit-specific bugs.

Of course there should be a balance patch, but they should really give it awhile. If anything, just address the obvious imbalances now, like Guile’s Ultra.

This is utterly false. I’ve followed starcraft for 10 years since it came out. It may not have been world of warcraft esque changes were a new patch completely changes the way a class plays every 3 months, but there were significantly game balance changes.

It may not seem like a big deal when the resource cost of a unit is changed from 75 to 50 minerals, but the effect on high-level play is enormous.

I don’t understand why anyone would not want the chance of victory to be equal for every character.

Again, I know SF4 is amazingly well balanced compared to every other fighter I can think of, but it is by no means perfect.

Why do people not want it to be perfect?

Because perfect is something that can only be approached but never achieved. Game balance isn’t easy it’s not an exact science, and there are massive unforseen things that can occur when a change is made. That’s why balance patches are so dangerous.

[kitzkozan]

I don’t understand why anyone would not want the chance of victory to be equal for every character.

Again, I know SF4 is amazingly well balanced compared to every other fighter I can think of, but it is by no means perfect.

Why do people not want it to be perfect?

Perfection is impossible,so you will always have tiers in fighting game.

The best you can hope for is to have a small gap between the best characters and the worst(going from A+ to B+ for example).

[Viache]

SF4 is primarily an arcade game in Japan.
If they tweak the console version they would be forced to tweak the arcade version accordingly.
Arcade owners would be forced to upgrade their SF4 machines, which is a pain in the ass.
It is not straightforward to “balance” the game.

Though the biggest reason is probably the fact that they can’t update all the arcades like they can the console version. It would be really wierd if the consoles had all sorts of balance adjustments while the arcades stayed the same.

Konami has all their music games hooked up to e-Amuse. It’s not that hard to wire arcade machines and push updates/content over the network.

Game is balanced better than most fighting games out there in terms of match ups. It doesn’t need patches.

The balance in SFIV is amazing comapared to past and present fighting games.

What are these games?

[cloudrivera]

All I ask for is that honda’s ex headbutt would go through fireballs!

[ShadowOS]

All I ask for is that honda’s ex headbutt would go through fireballs!

I think that would make Honda rape shoto hands down then… his headbutt has enough priority as is, going through fireballs would just mean Honda never has to move and inch.

Also as said before, Starcraft has had many many changes. Spawning pools went from 200, to 150, to 200 again… Zealots used to have 100 shields and 80 health, Carriers/Cruisers were 8 supplies instead of 6, Ultralisks were 6 instead of 4… Hell, mineral and vespine placement have been shifted around a few squares or so. A lot has change in Starcraft since it’s first release, not just bugs.

[cloudrivera]

But would that make him broken or top tier?

[Merkicus]

The idea that you should just ‘leave the game alone’ rather than make tweaks to improve the game and tighten the competition is lost on me.

Why would you not want to tighten up balance so more characters are competitive?

I for one am fucking sick of facing Ryu and Sagat 75% of every match I play online.

I can count on two hands the entire number of Gen, Rose, Sakura, Fei Long, Dan, Dhalsim, etc. players that I’ve seen in the past month and I play 20-30 matches a day.

Some of you seem too lazy to learn how to play against new characters that are actually competitive because you’re happy playing Ryu 24/7.

Capcom won’t put out a balancing patch that may threaten to undermine the status quo of the arcades. Now a patch that involves only console exclusive characters may be feasible but is probably unlikely. The next best thing to do then is to wait for the next iteration of SF 4.

You’re probably right but they used to do balance changes back in the early 1990’s with the variations of SF2 so I guarantee you we’ll see balance changes in the next version of SF4.

I think that would make Honda rape shoto hands down then… his headbutt has enough priority as is, going through fireballs would just mean Honda never has to move and inch.

I don’t think it’s necessary but I think the recovery on tiger shots and ryu’s fireball is too good.

[Projectjustice]

I cant wait for SF4 Dash.

[loldotcom]

People are thinking balancing games is easier than it really is.

If you take one matchup, that is, we’ll say, 7(char a)-3(char b). Well if you improve character b, to make it 5-5, what does that do to the match up that the character b had which was 7-3 in his favor ?

[Merkicus]

If you take one matchup, that is, we’ll say, 7(char a)-3(char b). Well if you improve character b, to make it 5-5, what does that do to the match up that the character b had which was 7-3 in his favor ?

How many characters are in this situation?

If there’s a 7-3 it’s usually for a very specific reason. You fix that reason, it’s 5-5. The other matchup just needs the same treatment.

It’s really not that hard to balance a fighting game when it’s already as close as SF4 is - you just tweak.

[Undiscovery]

I don’t understand why anyone would not want the chance of victory to be equal for every character.

Again, I know SF4 is amazingly well balanced compared to every other fighter I can think of, but it is by no means perfect.

Why do people not want it to be perfect?

You’re thinking about the game relative to your own perspective. What is perfect to you may not be perfect to others. If Capcom releases a patch that appeases a specific target audience, they would be simultaneously upsetting another. The point that I’m trying to make is that Capcom can’t take all our problems and turn them into solutions, because different people will want different things. The best they can do is provide us with a game that is playable and not broken; it is up to us to decide whether or not we want to play it.

[O.Red]

Seriously, any character in SFIV can be easily picked up because of how user friendly the game is. The sole exception is Abel.

Damn did you forget that Viper was in the game?

[Obanye]

All I ask for is that honda’s ex headbutt would go through fireballs!

That would most likely be broken. I would like to see something like what Sirlin did with Honda in HDR though. Maybe EX headbutt has super armor for 1 hit but only travels a bit farther than a jab headbutt. I don’t think that would be too bad.

[epy0nkaru]

you know there’s a lot of people in this thread deluding themselves. not about balance, not about tweaking or how it should be done, but character representation. If you fight ryu 24/7 and a balance hits and a lot of other people get better, you’re not going to see a huge spike in bison and honda players. the majority of them will stick with ryu and scrub it out 24/7 regardless.

[ChaiThai]

To me this is a lot of “My character isn’t that good, I’d like him to be better” rather than the “How can I overcome this challenge and prove I can win?” Patching in this way becomes a crutch for skill. It’s not like an MMO where the math makes the game unbeatable nor is it a horrifically abusive glitch that cannot be beaten. While there may be a disadvantage it’s still possible to win by outplaying your opponent. That’s why there’s different characters; Where you may be weak in one area, you have your own strong points. If everyone played equally 5/5 the game would be quite boring.

Plus it would take away that satisfying feeling you get when you take a character in a bad matchup and still win.

[Merkicus]

Patching in this way becomes a crutch for skill.

The real ‘crutches’ for skill are characters like Ryu and Sagat.

[XDaiKonX]

Actually there have been changes in Starcraft. Largely in build time and cost. For instance at one time the Photon cannons for the Protoss used to cost 150 minerals and now they only cost 100. Zealots used to build much faster till a near untouchable zealot rush became a problem.

For the most part it has been minor glitches and tweeks, but there was at least a few balace patches.

Sorry, but photon cannons are definitely 150 minerals still.

[parabellum]

I’m only going to say this once: Now that I’ve gotten to know the ins and outs of many matchups in this game, I feel it needs no balance patching.

Its just fine the way it is.

Yes, it sucks if you love a low tier character (I love Rose and Guile…)…but that is life.

I really don’t want to see any changes at all, except for netcode/lobby stuff.