Dude I’m sorry, I didn’t want to be the one that says this but we have to retract your SRK membership… you’re thinking about what Sirlin says in his articles and disagreeing with it.
Clearly you didn’t read the ToS about SRK, namely that one must agree with Sirlin in all things, and preferably constantly quote Playing to Win like its the bible. Sorry dude, you’re just not welcome here :nono:
If counter throws are the same as counter pokes, why not the hell go for it? Both lead to big damage and used to catch sloppy offensive opponents. Counter throws really on invincible frames to land while counter pokes rely on reaction from a footsie. Two different situation but both are worth using.
edit: Not to get off-topic but man I just read Sirlin’s article on WoW. The last paragraph says he will make an MMO that will teach the right things and right his own Term of Service. More power to him and good luck on his endeavors an all but I just have to say that he’s looking at WoW with shit-colored glasses.
hmmm… throws…
the age old question: to throw or not to throw?
honestly throws play a different role in this game than they do in regular streetfighter. simply put throws in streetfighter are there not necessarily as an overall gameplay mechanic, but because the game itself would be BROKEN as fuck without them: if your opponent ever got a lead they would be able to hold D/B until time ran out. the only thing an attacker could do to the opponent at that point would be to tick damage them to death. which is in itself fine until the timer comes into play, like what happens if theres only 15 secs left in the round and down by 50% HP all you as a character have is the option to boom/fireball your opponent to death and hope the block damage is enough… but it wont be, so you may as well just let go of the controller.
which is why throws ever existed in the first place, people that are high end tournament players however “abused” this mechanic (rightly so) because it was easy free damage in many situations where easy damage wasnt available.
well now fast forward to guard libra (guard break), negative penalty, overheads, ambiguous ground and air crossups and a game that is NOT STREET FIGHTER 2… there are about a million different ways to break a characters guard through both high-low mixups AS WELL AS, ambiguous crossups.
when you put those together it becomes clear that Back and Downback are not saviors at all, hence there really is little need for throws in the first place (in this game)… seriously, i WELCOME an opponent that wants to sit there and block all day on blazblue.
thanks for making my job alot easier :tup:
against runaway opponents throws wouldn’t do any good cause you wouldnt be close enough to throw them.
also, about counter throws…
i fail to see how that is relevant to this discussion… if the opponent were attacking, that means that the other person as the defender has an opportunity to do do a counter hit or reversal, i honestly dont see how throws beat attacks in ANY fighting game… but thats just me.
i mean if you try to throw someone because they are blocking too much and you cant figure out how to break there defense in any other way, FINE, but if the opponent actually attacked the throw shouldnt beat the attack.
also, sirlin is definitely right about throws needing to be 0 frames… i personally would like them to be unbreakable as well, i just dont believe that if my attack is in its first frame of animation on startup when the throw becomes active, that i should be thrown… seems like common sense to me, but maybe i’m just way off.
/end rant
-dime
Throws are ridiculously horrid, but at the same time they’re really good considering a lot of characters get some serious damage off of them.
They’re fine for me… online that is. I have a feeling there would be a lot more throw breaks if I actually got around to playing someone in person.
I think I’d prefer GGXX throws instead though.
Counter-throws are very relevant because they are untechable and since a lot of throws can be comboed out of it’s important if you want to expand your offensive options.
Counter-throws happen quite a bit if your playing Tager (and they still happen with other character’s too but not as frequently). An example would be his backdash because it has a lot of invincible frames and gives the Tager player the ability to through right after. You can also try to counter throw in gaps in pressure string when they try to mix-up (I think I bustered someone when they were pressuring me with ragna’s f D D).
edit: Yea normal throws are not worth it most of the time but look at it this way, you both go neutral if they tech
personally I would prefer the throws to be better and just have less followup damage, I mean, as others have said, they’re normally supposed to break turtleing or make someone too hasty back off. As it is now, only newbs(like me) who aren’t paying attention will land or get caught by throws often. Sure it still does happen in high level play, but I think they could stand to either speed throws up so tehy have better chances of counterthrow or at least reduce the tech window, OUTSIDE of stun, alot.
As others have said, the game doesn’t really need good throws considering all the other offensive tools available.
Also, I don’t know why he thinks the long throw tech window diminishes mix-ups. That’s about all throws are good for, really…even a throw out of blockstun will work if you take your opponent completely by surprise with it. Fast throws would make a lot of pressure situations flat out broken.
If throws had 0 frames startup they would be broken, because unlike street fighter, throws in this game lead to follow-up damage for possible big damage, and if you couldn’t tech those, it would turn tager into broken god tier and a total throwing game.
We’re not talking “BB with ST throws,” we’re talking “BB balanced around ST throws.” Or “BB balanced around GG throws” for that matter, and you could followup on GG throws just fine so whatever.
Throws in BlazBlue were designed to solve a problem that doesn’t exist in any version of SF2.
Combos.
The alpha and vs series kind of saturated the combo idea. Now instead of doing a 200 hit loop, you can choose to avoid damage scaling and throw during a combo. the attackee has to actaully pay attention while being looped instead of complaining on gamefaqs until the next round starts.
Its high risk/high reward and fun is had by all.
I don’t think Sirlin hasn’t stuck around much with Blazblue yet- I had the same opinion of throws when I first got started- they seemed slow, short-reaching, and so easy to tech as to move them to pointlessness. Throws in BB serve as a high risk damage add-on/combo resetter that basically requires the player getting mauled to pay attention to what the opponent’s doing while smacking them around. Throws still sneak into a lot of high level play videos because when one lands, it’s usually well worth the risk of a combo or pressure string ending right there.
Most characters don’t need their throws to be like they are in SF2, due to virtually everyone having charge unblockables, instant Air Dash, standing overheads, quick lows, and with the Guard Libra/Barrier Gauge being so quick to depleate under REAL pressure (A good Taokaka or Arakune will rip even Tager’s Guard Libra apart in a matter of seconds when they really get going). About the only characters that really really suffers for how throws exist are Tager and, to a lesser extend, Bang, since this turns a lot of their ‘assured’ damage into a gamble. (Noel might too, since she lacks a lot of ways to open up a decent opponent that knows when to interrupt her Chain Trigger stuff- if anyone else really really needs a 0-frame throw, it’d be her)
It’s different not to be thinking about throws mostly as a way to punish turtling outside the characters that make it the core of their offense, but BB shakes up so many other fighting game fundamentals that in a way, i can’t say I’m surprised or saddened by the change.
(I do agree a half-a-second tech window borders on the absurd, but grabbing someone in block stun is a huge and definitive threat. I’d much rather that have a long window and is only useful sometimes then a small one that makes it too good as a way of keeping the pressure/breaking turtles)
yes lets put 0f throws in a game where the fastest move is like 6 frames
You know this sort of reminds me of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Tournament Fighters. I used to play it when I little and I remember throwing ( or spitting since Michelangelo is awesome) fireballs and walking up and throwing. It was cheesy and awesome but actually unfair (On my little brothers part). That game had 0 frame throws and lots of awesome stuff that would be frowned upon appeared in that game (but still awesome).
Yea I like hearing your opinions so keep them coming if you want to add.
I personally am fine with the way it is now but if they made Sirlin’s changes I would still play BB :pleased:. It definitely would help Tager and Bang.
^^
WIN
Blazblue throws are only useless if you’re being predictable with them.
If you don’t agree with that statement, then you could just play BB as if you don’t have a throw, and whenever your opponent attempts to throw you, you’ll have no problem because they’re so easy to tech.
Getting jabbed out of throws: The only jab fast enough to do is that is possibly Noel’s 5a which has 5 frame startup. Everyone else is 6-7 frames. It’s not feasible to jab out of a throw.
Jumping air attack > Jumping air attack leading to being unable to get thrown: This is true in practically every fighter. I don’t see the problem here. If you force the opponent to block a jump-in, you should be able to jump before they can throw you. It’s one of the more popular tactics against characters like Zangief or Makoto. Yun anyone?
Holding up + back to jump out of block string will get you killed because you cannot block during the pre-jump startup. If the opponent throws out another attack instead of going for a throw, you have a good chance of getting hit. The only game where you are unable to jump after certain tick throw setups is SF2.
Finally, because there is a system where the opponent cannot tech throws at all after inputting a throw tech, a large part of the throw game involves baiting a throw tech via universal defense (block +abc), attacking with a jab to keep them grounded, and then attempting the throw during their untechable state. It’s a different approach.
Sounds to me like Sirlin just read some of the system mechanics and never played the game - which is bad considering how influential he’s become.
What’s interesting to me is that influence is a variable commodity, and the influence he gained with his work on Super Turbo and Kongai is rather quickly being squandered by his more recent commentary on SF4, WoW, and Starcraft. In all three cases he identified and highlighted minor issues while either completely missing or misunderstanding system mechanics. I think that his comments about BlazBlue are simply indicative of a continuation of that trend - he understands one particular model of gaming and balance extremely well, and things that deviate from that model are, in his eyes, bad. The kicker, though, is that they’re bad whether or not they’re internally balanced and fun within their own system.
His approach places purity of system design above actual gameplay, which is forgetting the entire point of making a game in the first place.
That is an interesting thought and I have to agree with you. On paper he makes things sound like it a pariah of gaming design, but when you integrate that certain mechanic into the game, it fits those games really well (sf4, BB, and WoW).
I respect all the balancing that he does in his games and his devotion for ST but that model does not work for every single game. He should expand his horizons a bit because there a plenty of game designers who differ from him but are able to make games fun and fair.
I know I was off-topic but just my 2 cents.
But anyways I agree with many of you guys the throw system is meant to accommodate the mechanics of this game, which are vastly different from ST and arises new situations and solutions that gamers run into when playing this. What will work for one game might not work for another.
its fine the way it is, that guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He expects people to throw and not get punished rather than punishing the people who tech out of the throws. Least its not like SF4 where throws are heavily relied on. And Tager grabs are crazy, sometimes it’de go through A moves
Sirlin has some really good ideas about fighting game design, but too often he gets bogged down with “because it’s not Super Turbo.” I’m all for simplified controls, but you don’t see Sirlin getting rid of QCF+P. Why? Because it’s simple enough. As is the case with two-button throws.
Ragna’s 5A is five-frame startup.
I think the only time I’ve been jabbed out of a throw is when they are really in my face. Like a meaty jab. It’s not that much range on the jab and for someone like Tager, if your near his hand it sucks you in (I love magnetism). But of course one of Tager’s problems is a full rush down like someone from Taokaka, but that is less about his throws and more about him in general.