Cauldrath, can you run a series of hits one after the other? Can you do cross up MK, st MP xx Fierce Shoryu with Ken against Dhalsim and then try the combo cross up MK, close st fierce xx Fierce Shoryu? That was one of the combos Clayton showed me had very funny properties that aren’t really well realized, and I want to see if the numbers add up, no pun intended.
Since I suck at combos while trying to read numbers, I’m just going to put up the dizzy numbers for each move, which are probably in line with your results anyway: (same disclaimer as before, these are just the numbers I observed, and the ranges may not be all-inclusive)
Ken hitting Dhalsim: (Dhalsim dizzies at 30 for the first dizzy)
cl. hp: 5-9
cl. mp: 6-12
j. mk: 4-11
HP SRK: (1st hit) 3-7 (2nd) 10-15 (3rd) 3-8
So barring close HP maybe hitting a range of 9 randomly, it would be best to go for close MP. But this does confirm via numbers what Seikou was showing me. Thanks a lot, Cauldrath. Great of you to do that. I do want to try a few other things. No cross ups involved here, but could you do the following attack sequence on Gief and record the numbers?
With N Ryu, sweep Gief and then perform the following combos after he gets up with Ryu.
Jump RH, close fierce, HP Red Fireball.
Jump MK, cr MK, any MP or HP Blue Fireball.
Can you list the stuns for low rush punches? I’m curious if that applies to those as well, but not like I ever get much chance to use medium low rush punch…
I think low rushes are one of the moves where if it knocks down then the dizzy is halved. Same with Red Fireball and Hurricane Kick.
Actually, I’ll just straight up ask. Cauldrath, outside of specific situations, would you be willing to catalog a single character’s dizzy with those numbers?
If I do anyone’s it’s probably going to be Chun’s first, because that’s who I play. It’s going to take a lot of time to do these, so if you want to help out, you can pull up MAME, turn on cheats, and set watchpoints for these: (8-bit, 1 length, switch to decimal from hex)
Total P2 Dizzy: FF88AD
P2 Dizzy Timer: FF88AB
Last Attack Dizzy: FF28ED
Note that throws don’t go into that Last Attack Dizzy memory location, so you need to look at the total dizzy number for that.
There are little variable situations to dizzy that Clayton showed me, so that was what I was asking to test first. But if I can help, I’ll do what you’ve outlined with probably O Ryu for said situations. Like moves that knockdown apparently resetting dizzy. It seems like Guile’s flash kick doesn’t follow this rule as opposed to other moves that knockdown, but I want to know for certain with one character. Lot of little “What ifs” and “maybes” here.
That is not the case across the board nor do I think it is the case at all. Lots of Dictator’s dizzy setups come off of specific knockdowns. Like if you knock someone down with cr.mk into RH scissor kicks, then go for an instant overhead on wakeup, you can dizzy them on that next hit. If knocking someone down reset the dizzy counter it would have been very noticeable in my opinion.
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Maybe some moves reset the dizzy counter on knockdown but my educated guess is that they do not. There are simply too many examples, with all characters, where someone has gotten knocked down and then dizzied on the first hit after rising.
That’s what all this testing is for, though. From what we can see on the hex data, a lot of what you thought was true has been proven false in ways. That and I saw on GGPO with my own eyes a lot of situations, and I did list an example of a move that doesn’t follow the knockdown convention which came after that portion of my post you seemed to home in on. In this case, Guile’s Somersault Kick.
Seikou said that far hard attacks do a lot of dizzy, but not every hard attack does more dizzy that other attacks. I’m seeing what works, but I think this just makes it worthwhile to test. Cauldrath’s data matches up, so I just want specific numbers so we can break down situations. Like, we know that a close fierce punch into shoryu shouldn’t dizzy as often as a close medium punch into fierce shoryu. The numbers show why and show the various ranges of how much dizzy might be being inflicted. This is pretty good stuff, I’m busy tonight but of all the things I’ve been compiling and testing, this is probably the one where I don’t feel in over my head. The data seems sound.
I said that when you use a move that knocks down, if it does not dizzy in the hit it self, then you should take away at least basically half of whatever the move is.
Heres a way/thought you can think of how damage/hit/stun in ST works if its easier. Sometimes over complicating things makes it more confusing so hopefully this wont sound well… complicated… again in general a lot of characters follow a similar pattern to this…
jump normals
Neutral jump hards do the most they are first tier do the most damage and do the most stun
Then neutral jump mp
Then neutral jump mk
Then diagonal jumps mp/mk
Then diagonal jump hp
Then diagonal jump hk
Then everything else
So obviously in general for more realstic situations you can sorta think of it like the jumping roundhouses etc are the most damaging and hit stun it self, but the least amount of stun. Fierces also do a lot of damage but do only middle sorta hit stun and middle dizzy. So there like your middle of the pack move. Where as the mediums do medium hit stun and damage, but do a lot of dizzy. And of course neutral jumps just do a lot all by themselves…
Of course though this can’t be abused per say because theres this strange thing where if you do a move to many times in a row it seems to do less? Im not exactly sure how it works, but again I assume its the same reason why rapid fire shorts do not dizzy in ST. Also even something with ryu ive tested before where ive done nothing but neutral jump HK over and over again for the whole round. And the other character never got dizzy. Which well common sense wise I would think shouldnt be possible. Since he and almost if not every character in the game has 2 hit dizzys from there neutral jumps.
And of course ground wise its generally better to combo with mediums if you are going for dizzy. And hard if you are going for damage. Another example I showed corrosion is, say theres the whole ken cross up hk, stand hp, flame dp combo of death. Well in ST, it has a pretty big chance of missing. Well if you do mk, to a medium not only of course is the character not going to get pushed away as far since it was a medium, but you also have a high chance of dizzing from just 2 hits of the dp. So even if it was going to miss. It doesn’t matter.
blah to mcuh typeing actaully. Im done.
Thanks again, Seikou, lol. I don’t want it to be misunderstood, I just want to get the numbers behind everything you’ve said there. Because of that kind test that Cauldrath did, it matched up with a situation you gave and it explained the “Well why did this combo only dizzy sometimes but this combo dizzies almost all the time?” The numbers are definitely all I’m after at this point.
Another thing I just don’t get, it just utterly confuses me, and I’ve never read any answer that solves the problem. Here it is :
When I go for a tick throw, when I’m the ticker, I can get a throw 90% the time against good players pushing the button just at the right time. That is first point.
Second point is I can’t reverse a tick throw more than 10 % of the time even mashing like a beast on my button.
So global point is : isnt there a sort of priority for the one that ticks to throw ?
And now the problem is :
if you say yes, I say : 1/ but as we both are just able to throw after the blockstun is over, how can someone have a priority ? Because in that one frame after the block stun we both have the same chance to perform a throw ! (with the 50/50 chance stuff if you throw on the same frame blabla…).
If you say no, I say : 2/ but man, I’ve played a billion matches and I can burn in hell if I lie : I’m sure 1000% I feel in my veins the advantage when I tick throw, and the disadvantage when i’m tick thrown !!
Answer 1/ might be the correct one. But it feels soooooo wrong.
2/ doesnt mean a thing technically ; but it seems soooo right !
Share if you got some tremendous info about that thrilling dilemma
Reversal throws always win. If the character being ticked is out of range, the normal does not come out. The issue is hitting the button at that precise frame. I guess if you would set a macro+autofire button to have, say, strong pressed at a frame then fierce the next one, then repeat, you would get the throw mostly every time (you might be out of range a few times).
I believe the issue is being in control. The ticker knows which attack he uses to tick and if the throw attempt will actually happen. The defender must judge and react, and he is under pressure.
Just turn that turbo on!!!
Seriously, if you have a turbo that can do 20/sec, you can see that you’ll reverse throw 50% if your opponent is decent and maybe more if they suck.
Cigarbob taught me not to mash when counter throw. Instead, treat it exactly like reversal DP and use double tap technique.
i.e.
instead of mash way ahead of time before you’re out of stun at a rate of 14 button taps per second (your chance of hitting the reverse throw frame is low), practice and time your counter throw at the correct frame and double tap at 30 button taps per second (although you actually only tap twice… i.e. the taps are extremely close, one after another like you double tap reversal dp).
You’re just as bad as those guys who said they can control it and not explain how, because by not explaining how you did it after you found out you’re hiding information from future players trying to figure this out… Although I don’t play blanka, it frustrates me so much when I have a problem with my a computer program and I try to google the answer, there will be like 10 places where people are asking, and one place where a problem is marked solved. but all the poster says is “nvm I got it” without explaining how he got it or what he did.
Even if it’s not the same solution to what’s causing my problem, it can give me insight for more things to try… (same thing if I come across similar problems in future games, etc… if we’re talking about how you got the blanka super to not roll)
That’s actually very interesting, especially since you got crazy high numbers for LL … Maybe I can catch people off guard by dizzying them a bit after Landing LLs
I finally got around to putting together Chun’s numbers: (the range is the amount of dizzy, the second number is the dizzy timer added, and the same disclaimer that the ranges may not be all-encompassing)
cl. lp: 0-4, 40
cl. mp: 5-10, 60
cl. hp: 11-15, 80
cl. lk: 1-5, 40
cl. mk: 6-11, 60
cl. hk: 10-15, 80
cr. lp: 0-4, 40
cr. mp: 6-10, 60
cr. hp: 11-15, 80
cr. lk: 1-4, 40
cr. mk: 5-11, 60
cr. hk: 6-10, 130
st. lp: 0-4, 40
st. mp: 6-11, 60
st. hp: 11-15, 80
st. lk: 0-5, 40
st. mk: 7-11, 60
st. hk: 11-16, 80
Neckbreaker: 11-15, 80
Flip Away Kick: 0-5, 50
neutral j. lp: 1-6, 40
neutral j. mp: 6-10, 50
neutral j. hp: 12-17, 60
neutral j. lk: 1-7, 40
neutral j. mk: 6-11, 50
neutral j. hk: 10-16, 80
Head Stomp: 2-8, 60
diagonal j. lp: 2-6, 40
diagonal j. mp: 6-10, 50
diagonal j. hp: 12-16, 60
diagonal j. lk: 1-7, 40
diagonal j. mk: 6-11, 50
diagonal j. hk: 11-16, 60
Kikkoken 8-12, 90
Lightning Legs: 5-11, 100
Spinning Bird Kick 7-13, 90
Upkicks: 0-4, 20
Super: 0-2, 20
Throw: 7-13, 100
I have a few questions about the dizzy timer. Do the dizzy timer values add up or does the next hit’s value override the last? Assuming they add up, is there a cap on how high the dizzy timer can get? When does the timer start counting down? Does being in hitlag/stop or being knocked down pause the dizzy timer?
My last question is what is the “Last Attack Dizzy” value mean? If it is what I think it is, I’m not sure why it wouldn’t reset to 0 in the next round and why throws don’t seem to contribute to it.
I’ll try to see if I can help out with some of the dizzy values. I’m always pretty bad at setting things up so we’ll see how that goes lol.
I second Big O’s questions.
The dizzy timer is added to with every attack and ticks down by 1 every single frame, including during hit pause, but not during super freeze. While logically there is a cap to how high the dizzy timer can go, you’re going to dizzy long before you reach that point.
The last attack dizzy just seems to be a memory location where the value of the dizzy is stored before being applied. It’s just temporary data that doesn’t get cleared when the game is done with it, because it doesn’t affect anything outside of that function. I’m sure that throws apply dizzy in a different section of code, and because of that don’t use the same local value. Some example C++ code of what generally happens:
int LastAttackDizzy=AttackInfo[AttackNumber].BaseDizzyValue;
PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].DizzyTimer+=AttackInfo[AttackNumber].DizzyTimer;
LastAttackDizzy+=rand()%AttackInfo[AttackNumber].DizzyRandomRange;
PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].Dizzy+=LastAttackDizzy;
if(PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].Dizzy>=MaxDizzyValues[PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].NumTimesDizzied]) {
PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].IsDizzied=true;
PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].DizzyTimer=0;
PlayerData[PlayerBeingAttacked].Dizzy=0;
}
Then, every frame when there isn’t super freeze:
if(PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].Dizzy>0) {
PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].DizzyTimer--;
if(PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].DizzyTimer<=0) {
PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].DizzyTimer=0;
PlayerData[PlayerBeingUpdated].Dizzy=0;
}
}
The only part of the dizzy system that I don’t consider “solved” is finding the timer for when a character is immune to dizzy after recovering from one. Figuring out how long that timer is and if anything keeps it from ticking will let us figure out what you’d need to do to get a redizzy combo.
hmm… so, LL + throw if you miss a dizzy combo and don’t want to lose your chance… and land that last hit to dizzy…
I remember you said you got different numbers for the dizzy timer earlier before you knew what it was… does that mean that number is an average? what’s the range for that?