There is no "lame", only zoning: The keep-away thread

_Insert_Name_Here · January 28, 2013, 12:24am

Ah, the classic. “You like winning video games! You must be a loser, ha ha, go get a life loser. Ha ha, it’s just a video game.”

Winning is fun. How fun it is depends on how much of a priority you put on winning. You really have no right to mock others for enjoying winning more than you just because they take a certain activity (not just video games) more seriously.

ES_Curse · January 28, 2013, 2:51am

d3v · January 28, 2013, 6:10am

Because someone had to do it.

Sirlin:

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.

Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite subtle and difficult to discover. Knowing the counter tactic prevents the other player from using his tactic, but he can then use a counter to your counter. You are now afraid to use your counter and the opponent can go back to sneaking in the original overpowering tactic. This concept will be covered in much more detail later.

The good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Let’s return to the group of scrubs. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look valid, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of this “fun” on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his every move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Misdreavus · January 28, 2013, 10:48pm

Except that argument is way too black and white. It assumes that either you “play to win at all costs”, only play “the cheap stuff” and are out to go win Evo, or you’re a scrub that just whines and mashes buttons all day. Either you’re a pro or a whiny scrub. When in reality, there’s this third group called “casuals.”

For example, I like to play with strategy, learn some combos, and I generally try to be a competent player, and I don’t complain about people who do pick top tiers, play to win, etc. On the other hand, I like to play my favorite characters instead of “just picking a top tier” myself, I don’t have any drive to go win tournaments, and I just like to play as a fun hobby.

Does that make me a scrub? No, it doesn’t, that makes me a casual. Because a scrub isn’t “someone who doesn’t play to win.” A scrub is someone who complains and whines about other people’s characters/playstyle/motivation/etc, instead of learning to fight it and letting people play how they want. Casual players and scrubs are not the same thing.

That “guide” is flawed, and people seriously need to stop quoting it.

Spider-Dan · February 5, 2013, 12:40pm

Are we talking about watching, or playing? Seems like a hardcore Real Lifer like yourself would be able to tell the difference.

There are many things that I enjoy doing that I wouldn’t watch for anything in the world. I don’t care if it’s boring to watch zoning.

I have no idea what this has to do with zoning. Please do explain.

You speak as if “destroying a noob” with High Skill Rushdown is miraculously entertaining and fun. Any match against any dramatically inferior opponent is going to be boring and stupid. How does this somehow mean that Zoning Is Bad?

…said the guy on the internet forum dedicated to video game strategy.

Jy0 · February 20, 2013, 7:15am

<p>this may be old but i think i wanna chime in. playing to win is awesome in ranked or tourneys etc etc. but in lobbies or casuals i’ll use my “real” team maybe at first… but if I find that the skill barrier is too wide i’ll switch the team up or ask the other player is wanting some advice or something. Play to win is great. but i don’t feel it’s needed to destroy ppl who aren’t on the same level as myself. if they ask for advice and such great i’ll be happy to offer. I’ll even tell them how to stop the tactic i’m doing. isn’t it better for everyone if people get better at the game? now if the person just whines and cries and doesn’t accept any help… then I’ll probably still switch teams… (i have a few that are good) and beat them anyway… basically what i’m saying is that’s it’s all in context. If you’re the type that just goes all out no matter what then that’s fine… I just don’t agree with it cuz I’m not getting any better beating up on ppl that don’t know the game… i’d much rather help them out. If i’m in a lobby of good players and a unskilled player joins. I offer them to hit me up later if they want training but this lobby might not be for them. (hard to help someone with a bunch of others in there). Just my random thoughts </p><p>xbox gt jy0</p>