Sweet, Thelo’s guide got posted on the front page…
Thelo if that orignal post was supposed to be a “quick” guide
I wonder what a long guide from you looks like!
:wonder:
:woot:
Now I see why I lose, it’s my reactions are slow ass, and any amount of dropped frames just means I can’t react quick enough.
Oh hey, someone cleaned up my guide a bit and submitted to the front page! Thanks to whoever did that!
Hmm, now that Rufus has a fairly complete coverage on frame data, maybe I should get started on that reaction time examples part I said I’d do.
so a sagat that stays in a considerable spot waiting for uppercut and heavy kick is considered as reaction or prediction or turtling?
Reaction, of course - he’s waiting for you to jump in, so he can react to it with an uppercut or roundhouse, while not really exposing himself. Reaction tends towards “nobody takes damage right now”.
Prediction is when you take a risk, like most times where Sagat throws a Tiger Shot - at the moment where Sagat inputs the Tiger Shot, he predicts the opponent won’t jump, so he can sneak some damage in. But if the opponent did jump, then Sagat eats an attack himself. Prediction tends towards “someone will take damage right now”.
“Turtling” is just a catch-all term for defense.
but at some cases sagat tiger shot is fast enough that when u jump in you still gets hit by uppercut.
worse scenario is that attack gets traded with uppercut allowing sagat to roundhouse+ultra.
what are the time assuming from 0-1 second are considered as predicting or reacting?
but personally, i am a very hot headed player that tries to sneak in 1-2 attack every moment. i might be biased against sagat…
Right, this is why I said “most times” because sometimes your tiger shot really is safe and you can do it without any fear, in which case go nuts with it. The prime idea I wanted to explain was the concept that reaction can help make your moves safer (because you don’t have to guess), but when you can already attack safely in the first place, go ahead and do it.
Incidentally, I was talking about HD Remix Sagat, not SF4 Sagat (who I don’t really know), but it’s very possible that it also applies to SF4 Sagat.
sounds brokenly S rank. but yea i do get your concept
fair enough. your post is great in general nothing really troubling me. its just that some people can read your post misleadingly in various of ways that it gets very sensitive and debatable.
its like how to filter your post direction to not lead to the definition of glorifying the turtle.
i for one hate players who
eg.
honda/blanka extremely reactive yet.
they can’t do their lp into HHS or lp into electric (requires piano/execution) basically they have poor execution and other combo’s that are considered tough. since they failed in attack department.
they choose their game play solely on reacting opponent moves and reverse accordingly.
their play style consist of waiting.
sagat/ryu that are extremely reactive yet.
ryu fails at doing 3lp into shoryu
sagat ignores doing 3clk into TU or doesn’t do proper jump hp kara uppercut.
these kinds of players makes me sick…but heck they are tough to deal with and exist in every community.
i believe when you choose to defend you have your mind all ready to react to moves you are extremely sharp.
when you are the one that attacks and executing heavy combo’s reacting to move becomes extra hard.
it feels like chasing game and in does really induce fatigue like what milodc said.
but i guess there’s some players that can do both style which makes them solid overall and makes it enjoyable to play.
players that are extremely defending or extremely attacking are both ugly i guess. but being the attacking one seems more fun. while the defending one being ugly with “playing to win” in their mind.
Wrong game.
most people reading this i presume are predominantly sf4 players rather than other game.
anyway we aren’t really talking about the game really aren’t we just talking about “reaction” and “prediction”
lets not start debating about wrong game or not…
i just believe that a person who turtle and waits for jump-in boost their reaction by a big margin. therefore some players actually chooses to turtle the whole game regardless of whether he is down in health or not. and the person who is having a life lead gets disgusted and choose to attack and which might cost his game but can’t stand getting disgusted.
dbl post…
You believe most people reading a topic on the HDR boards are mostly playing SF4 ?
As thelo points out, there are lots of things that people can’t react to. In fact, most of the stuff in the game is that fast. A type of reaction that I don’t think is mentioned in the article, but is important and common, is the ‘punish on block’ reaction. (I super turbo, each block adds 14 frames.)
The only thing I’m understanding from your posts is that you hate turtles. In that case, there is a big difference between turtleing in SF4 and turtleing in ST/HDR. The game does actually matter. SF4 is already a huge turtle fest. Every character can turn to turtleing as a winning strategy. So a turtle is more at home in that game. But in ST/HDR, turtleing is actually an effective strategy at winning for some characters, but not all. What I’m saying is, everyone in SF4 can turtle, but not everyone in ST/HDR can turtle. Characters like Hawk, Zangief, Cammy and Boxer have to rushdown in order to win, esp Hawk and Zangief. They can’t afford to turtle in any match. If they get the life advantage, then yes, they can turtle to get a win by timeout. But they first have to get the life lead.
And that’s why you hate turtles. SF4 is super turtle friendly, but ST/HDR can mess up them turtles real quick, with the right rushdown character of course.
gosh. you still want to argue about this when i requested not to…
i am a sf4 player. how did i get directed to this post over here? because its on the main page of shoryuken and etc. and i bet there’s a hefty amount of players that are ex-st,thirdstrike,tekken,kof,sf4 are reading the post.
To be honest, I don’t mind that players of other games post in this thread. The article started as a simple post in the Honda strategy thread, but really I think the jist of it does apply to all fighting games, and many SF4 players told me it resonated well with their own experiences. Since it was posted on the front page, in the Montreal regional thread, and probably other places too, I think it’s fine that other players post in here and give examples from other games.
I never requested to argue with you.
That was a rhetorical question.
I simply pointed out how silly your position was.
I’m really confused about what we’ve been arguing about for the past few posts. @_@ How the initial post misleads people is beyond me. Whether the game is SFIV, HDR, or even Gin Rummy, Thelo’s guide to defining reaction vs. prediction, then showing my reaction is better still holds true.
Prediction vs. reaction
Prediction: You throw out a move because you think your opponent is going to jump, fireball, buttflop, tick throw, etc. You committed to a move without any visual evidence. Your decision was purely based on assessing possible future options given the current situation.
Reaction: You commit to a move because you see your opponent jump in, fireball, etc. You commited to a move because you have visual evidence that you opponent has left an opening for you to exploit. Your decision was based on what you saw your opponent do and took the appropriate action to take advantage of any opening your opponent has left.
Then there’s some stuff about 0-1 seconds that I don’t understand. Then some unrelated stuff to people who can’t execute properly.
Losing to opponents who clearly have mastered only one technique while lacking a solid game in other areas
I can’t count how many times I’ve lost to a Sim or Ken player because all he did was tick throw and clearly couldn’t do anything other than that to win. Yeah I get frustrated. But it’s part of the game. Just like characters have strengths and weakness, players, too, have strengths and weaknesses. Find out what your weakness is and train appropriately.