quick but stupid Lion question since I didn’t get a chance to try this at C3:
on counterhit Shippo Shosenshu ( [2]6P or 336P ) against Heavyweights can you still get 44K,P+K,6K? ( i could be wrong about this working against Heavies in VF4Evo but i’m probably thinking of Mid class and Wolf ) and does it do better or worse damage than [6]P,KK?
thanks in advance
It’s not a matter of simply being able to land a low throw period, it’s a matter of practicality. Sure you can low throw a whiffed low P, but you have to be looking for it, and they actually have to end up doing what you expected, otherwise you just whiffed a low throw right in their face. Low throwing fuzzy is the same situation, you’re doing it specifically to beat fuzzy. Using delay throw is safer because if they just stand there and block, or decide to use an evade option select, you’ll still land the throw.
Low throws are decent in very specific contexts and can lead to huge damage if you’re Wolf or Jeff, but are pretty much garbage as a cornerstone of a consistent winning strategy. I can’t believe that in the age of literally hundreds of hours of youtube matches where Wolf wins and doesn’t land a fucking low throw there is someone scrubby enough to argue that low throws are part of a basic winning gameplan. Ludicrous.
So the margin I was talking about is right there in the numbers. A throw direction that leads to 10 dmg, and 5 more dmg off of the most damaging throw for the respective characters. If we were talking about pai with her back to the wall then I’d agree that Pai’s throws are substantially better, but in general she’s not all that better than Jacky throw-wise.
Check this thread out (I outline DS combos well enough, I have yet to start on OS).
Check the rest of the Vanessa forums for anymore info (please, I put a bit of work into them 
)
I agree that low throws and ground throws even, arn’t key to anyone’s game, but they’re a huge part for those who have them. Just knowing my opponent has those options forces me to think about that much more I have to deal with.
Actually, there’s approximately 14 hours of VF vids (from all installments) with Wolf in them 
http://virtuafighter.com/wiki/doku.php?id=vf5:lion:combos
That is Lion’s WIKI combo page, FrenchAkira has put alot of hard work into it, I hope it helps you.
EMX and KoD/cody: I know we might have differing opinions but let’s try to be civil here, no reason to get personal over it, it seems we ALL HATE pai so lets look at it that way lol. :wgrin:
Cody, usually when I OM it’s at +3 to +5 or maybe even at nitaku advantages, I don’t press P or K until at the end of my animation (so attacks don’t track). When I do this I never get hit out of my OM unless it was purposefully by a delayed launcher or attack. In fact I end up usually with OM P staggering or OM K crumpling.
I don’t have a PS3 to test this but it’s just my experience with OM vs. playing real people that when you use it where people advise you to (like Yanagi’s article about Pai from Arcadia) it usually does very well.
Also I thought 2_6P was -12 according to the changes given by Srider unless some last minute changes were done. I could be wrong, my bad if I was.
EMX: I think we are getting a little confused regarding how we are looking at low throw from our perspective. You see it as pointless to use but I think it’s useful in the long run because it puts a scare into people and causes confusion to those who fuzzy guard. I never said it was the basis to her whole game but really useful overall.
Also I think that just because you don’t see alot of Wolf’s win with low throw on Youtube doesn’t mean it’s not used. There are plenty of vids of El Blaze, Wolf, and other grapplers making use of low throw alot. I think that of the Youtube vids Wolfs are winning because characters are constantly RN’ing back in fear of throw therefore setting up Wolf’s screw hook/knee lift/short shoulder. It doesn’t mean it’s not used or not important. Making a dude eat 70 dmg for fuzzy guarding is wicked.
Exactly. You’re doing it specifically to beat the best defensive option available at small to mid disadvantage.
Even besides what dan already pointed out . . . against people who can fuzzy, then rise to guard mid on reaction? Or crouchdash into a launcher? Have fun with being thrown out of your whiffed throw or launched out of your 0-frame throw . . .
at small to mid advantage:
Safest <–> least safe
fast mid . . . throw . . . low throw . . . delay throw
Is fuzzy guard a basic part of a winning gameplan? Then low throws are a basic part of a winning gameplan. Perhaps not a huge part, but certainly more than a “gimmick”.
As for the namecalling . . . did you not have enough pwnage at the hands of shang on #vfhome? The difference between us is that I know I’m scrubby . . .
IMO delay throw is only good when you have established a pattern on what your opponent does defensively…thus making them unsafe just to throw em’ out like there safe…
I never said it was pointless, just that it has a very situational application. If someone is confused that they’re being low thrown out of fuzzy then they suck, period. Low throw beating fuzzy is like fuzzy guard 101.
I can barely understand what you’re getting at here. Do you even know what fuzzy guard is? Fuzzy guard beats immediate mid and throw flowcharts by ducking and then standing up in the smallest amount of frames possible. No one stands up to guard shit on reaction out of fuzzy, since at the end of fuzzy you’re already standing. No one is going to just throw a launcher out of nowhere to beat delay throw unless they know that’s going to happen, and you can just as easily be thrown or launched out of a whiffed low throw because they were standing (inherently safer than ducking) instead of ducking. Delay throw covers more defensive options than low throw, period. Both suck against immediate, retaliatory attacks and throws because they’re DELAYED.
Low throws do beat fuzzy guard, but you have to know that’s what they’re going to do with 100% certainty. I’d rather take a delayed high throw in that situation because it will beat them if they decide to just freeze and guard or do E-DTE-G, along with their fuzzy. I wouldn’t call Wolf and Jeff’s low throws “gimmicks” because they do a substantial amount of damage. I was only referring to Pai’s low throw game which does utter shit damage.
Shang is a well-known troll in #vfhome and will insult anyone who sees things differently from him at the drop of the hat. I was about on the level Dandy_J(goes 50/50 with SH_) and SH_(highest placing American at Evo) the last time we played, so I’m not sure where you get the idea that I’m scrubby. I’ve never heard of you or seen you play, so I only have what you’ve said about the game to go on, and suggesting that low throws can be used as a cornerstone to a winning strategy proves you don’t understand basic concepts like risk and reward in VF, thus you are a scrub.
They aren’t “safe” just safer than using low throw because they cover more defensive ground.
thanks for the link Granby, that definitely helps considering i hadn’t even seen the Black Book stuff yet ( can’t wait on that new guide ).
also can we please cut the e-penis argument bullshit, this game really doesn’t need that.
It’s funny that you bring up dandy J . . . perhaps you’ll understand it a bit better when he says it:
All that’s required for fuzzy is that you are crouching on the 12th frame, and standing guard on the 14th frame (for elbow). Yes, most people do it mechanically, and that’s by far the easiest way to do it, but it’s not the only way.
My point is that delay throw is inherently trying to get a throw to hit on something past the 12th frame, that’s why it works. But once the opponent has crouched past the 12th frame, he’s already beaten an immediate standing throw attempts, and he can do something other than just staying in standing guard into your delay throw. . .
Even if you don’t believe reaction fuzzy guard is possible, consider this:
@ -6, opponent buffers crouchdash, taps guard, then lowpunch.
Unless you have a way of very, very accurately wasting enough frames to time your delay throw to hit on the 14th frame, you’re going to get lowpunched out of it. Low throw doesn’t have that disadvantage - you can buffer it, and it will cleanly beat that fuzzy guard every time.
low throw always beats a fuzzy that beats a standing throw.
delay throw can beat a fuzzy that beats a standing throw.
Does that really not make sense?
It’s good that you pointed out that flaw in using delay throw to beat fuzzy. Against players who are more likely to respond aggressively in those situations it’s probably a better idea. The problem again is that you’re using a 1:1 counter for something, instead of covering more than one base. That kind of risk-reward tradeoff is usually applied to the defensive player in VF, not the one pressing the choice game. I never denied that low throw was useless to beat fuzzy guard, just that it wasn’t as safe as delayed throw, and I still maintain that.
Reaction “fuzzy” seems kind of like a contradiction in terms to me since fuzzy guard is by definition an option-select defense, not one based on reaction. I understand what it’s referring to and believe it’s possible, and the way he uses the term makes sense in that context, but I just consider that sort of thing a part of good blocking.
Ad-hominem attacks are the spice of e-penis argument bullshit.
[media=youtube]N0wF90QrPsc[/media]
It’s like Tony Famillia over at VFDC knew this low throw topic concerning Wolf was going to be brought up today lol.
Lol that low throw set up is kind of easy to get out of but yeah it’s tight when it happens cause it does massive damage.
Anyhow, 7 days till 360 heaven guys!
FUCk MADDEN!
GET AT DAT VIRTUA FIGHTER!! :looney:
Oh shit. Is that Wolf? Or Jagi from HnK?
Yeah. 7 DAYS! GET HYPHY~!
Man, that Wolf looks sick!
My local Gamestop said it’s not for sale until Wednesday, October 31.
I think I may try to find it somewhere else, any ideas?
I guess VF5 has been leaked on the internets. Too bad my 360 isn’t modded :sad:
I would still buy the game, I just want to play it now.
I guess just any local shops you may have. Sometimes Wal-Mart and Target get shipments early but are usually very concious of street dates. Buuuut, I’m not sure if the 30th is the street date on VF or not.
I work at GS/EB and we have the ship date listed on the 30th so if we happen to get it on that day, we’re allowed to sell them. There’s really no street date for VF5.
But it’s most likely stores won’t be getting them until next week.