Interesting, I’ll check this out.
See, the thing about saying X game has Y element I don’t like, and Z game doesn’t, is that everytime someone says that, they’re wrong. Their favorite game always has it too, and they just didn’t know it (or aren’t advanced enough to see it). Again, I don’t know enough about Tekken 5 to cite examples. But in VF, Wolf has a half damage throw, Kage can ring you out from the middle of a stage, Akira landing a counterhit 466p+k or HCBp leads to a 3 hit combo for half life, Shun-Di has combos a 7 year-old could be trained to do that take half life (starting from a move that deflects 2/3rds of everything), I could go on. A giant amount of characters can take more than half life with their alpha combos on CH or with wall combos. Kage and Lion have legit combos that, while hard as nails to do, take off as much as 80%.
So this is like when 3s fanboys cite MvC2 as being imbalanced, or when MvC1 people bitch about MvC2 guardbreaks and infinites, or when any fan of any game complains about huge damage options in other games or things that ‘don’t work right.’ Every decent competitive fighting game at a high enough level has things that work just a little too well. And as a direct counter to your example: 3d fighters use high/mid/low rather than high/low, I’m assuming you know this. Highs go over lows completely and whiff. There are tons and tons of high moves that whiff through a character’s head or upper chest when the target is crouching or doing a low move. Why? The animations don’t quite synch up (like say standing Eileen doing P versus crouching Wolf) but highs always go over lows. What you see looks like Arnold punching the T-1000. Not quite ‘realism’ but it works for gameplay; if the move worked simply because it technically contacted the other character’s graphic, there would be more ‘realism’ and meanwhile VF5’s extremely well-tuned gameplay turns to garbage. Anyways I have a VF5 combo video that’s about done and should be online one way or another pretty soon that will show you lots of fun stuff doing too much damage. Some practical, some not, but these arguments on IRC and alt games sf2 and fnet and HV and SRK for a decade now have never changed, it’s always the pot calling the kettle black.
Broken record now, but I can’t speak for Tekken. For VF5 however, there certainly is a system check in place for moves colliding simultaneously. The move with fewer exe (startup) frames wins. If moves collide and have the same number of exe frames, the more damaging wins. So, 3d fighters do comprehend it, or at least one of them - I can’t imagine Tekken doesn’t have a similar system in place.
In the VF5 example, sometimes things like this happen but they still conform to the core gameplay mechanics. I can’t speak for KOF2006 either, but there must be a system in place for determining hit collision and priority, how could there not be? Occasionally the systems are just not executed as well as they could be (A3).
You’re on a site where people break these games down to a science and nearly nothing is unexpected in any game after a while, even the situations that don’t “look” right. It’s not unexpected after you’ve seen it once and can replicate the results. So that’s the point where you find a way around it, if it’s a big enough deal. So, say, someone can dick you for standing next to them while they’re laying on the ground? Backdash, make them whiff, and punish them if possible. Then they stop doing what they were doing and you can start pressuring them on the ground again until you think they’ll try again, and this is why games between human beings are interesting.
ok this has gone far enough.VF5 is a great game…lets leave it at that.
So how about that Brad guy. I hear he’s badass!
Any other guy satisfied with their VF5 versions of their favorite characters? I can only say that Wolf is just as awesome, as he was back in VF4.
Even though tiering in this game is not as strong/defined as in other games, can something like a matchup chart be made? I don’t think that every matchup is the same - it would be interesting to know which are considered the hardest opponents for each character at least.
On another matter, I mostly play Wolf and I’m having big trouble against Lau (human opponent). I have trouble pressuring him and setting up throws (while I find myself having to block a lot against his fast strings, and evading can be hard due to his circular moves), and I still can’t really punish him unless he makes a really big mistake. I’m at a low level but when the same player picks other characters I do much better. Some useful tips at least would be appreciated.
Yeah I have the same kind of problems, fast-punch character’s can be a pain. Keeping a little distance seems to give you more time to predict your opponents next move. b+P seems to be good at getting bulldogging opponents of your neck (d+P, fcd f+p) is the juggle I use after a succesful b+p. RAW (P+K+G) has a larger window to counter with, so I suggest that you use this after your opponent blocks a d+P. K+G that giant full circular attack that is 0 on block, which means this is great for catching evading opponents. b+K is a nice poking tool, staggers if it hits a crouching opponent. u/f+P+K is a nice tool to have avaiable against rising opponents, since it crushes low attacks.
Where can I find frame data for this game?
I’m pretty happy with VF5 Lion, though he still requires a good amount of patience at high level play (well, high level play requires a lot of patience in general).
His guaranteed followups are solid, though nothing to really write home about outside of the standard b,b+K --> P+K combos. And that’s only if the opponent went for something really big and you blocked it. If they were playing very safe and minimal, you don’t really have that option outside of really setting it up with zoneplay.
However, he doesn’t really punish low attacks as well as a lot of other characters. He doesn’t really have high damage options in punishing a blocked low if the opponent recovers low, but he at least has good setups from that situation–so it just requires more work, but at least the upside is good potential. If he wants to use elbow (and the punch followup), he has to buffer in f+G first which almost reduces the frame advantage from the block. He has a good knee (f+K) flowchart, so that’s worthwhie on potential. f+P uppercut from crouch is an alright option, but it’s really aiming to hit opponents who are trying to attack from disadvantage. If the opponent’s low attack recovers high though, then Lion’s got good strong options.
Great damage potential around walls. And Lion’s still got a lot of great tools for controlling ring position.
b,df+P is still great to slip under high attacks. Just gotta be careful with it and mainly use it to slip under over-committed attacks by your opponent. Throwing it half-hazardly can get you killed.
His sabaki is still great as always and a good way to limit options.
b,f+K is a decent new move good at punishing low attacks. It also has okizeme potential.
I love Lion’s Okizeme game.
His new punch parries aren’t all that great, but I love using them. At the very least, you change up the ring position well and there’s potential for massive side crumple combos–though I’m pretty lousy at making use of those opportunities.
I like his new stances a lot. They’re a bit tricky to use, but they add quite a bit to Lion’s repertoire:
f+P+K+G (TRSF stance)
Good stance with good options to use if you’re at a good advantage in the fight. Don’t overuse it, but mixing it in now and then yields good results. The P+G catch throw is a wonderful addition if you can catch your opponent doing option select defense (like Evade-Throw Escape-Guard and what not). Even catching them trying to fuzzy guard at times. Catch throws just keep opponents honest. f+P has good setup potential by creating space, I use it partially as a zoning tool, partially because of its semicircular nature. I’m working on using KK from the stance, because it sets up wonderful opportunities with the side turn. Still have a ways to go before I’m comfortable using KK a lot.
b+P+K+G (TRMF)
This stance is also pretty good but you have to use it appropriately. Generally if the opponent is advancing from mid or long range. If they were already in close range, they’ll probably hit you out of this stance if you didn’t at least poke or pressure them first. But it’s not a bad option after a standard poke. From this stance, f+K+G is a great guard break that will stumble your opponent giving you a lot of good options to rush them. d+K keeps opponents at mid range a bit honest simply by being a low poke. f+P+K is alright and does give you an opportunity to zone your opponent and set them up for something big.
Kanpo (P+K+G right after some of the knee attacks Lion has)
Kanpo is limited, but it’s great when mixed into your knee flowchart. PP has sabaki properties. K is a knee that looks like the normal knee, but it crumples on MC giving you good guaranteed damage from combos. I wish he had a low option or a catch throw from this stance, but it’s still good for what it is. Basically, a knee flowchart option.
Other general things about Lion (and some reiteration). Good zoning character. Has overrated but still good low pokes, only problem is that they are all highly punishable (if opponents only knew). Again, control over ring position is great. qcb+P is an awesome sabaki. Throw mixup game of b, df, f, neutral. Fun backturned game if you’re into that (I am too into backturned games). Great okizeme potential with lots of fun tools. Wall combos are awesome (if only I made better use of them).
The main downside is that he doesn’t have uber punishment for low recovering low attacks (he doesn’t punish sweeps as well as most other characters, and what he does have requires some added work) and he generally doesn’t have giant guaranteed damage. But it’s made up for with his ability to poke well and he does have damage potential if you set it up.
The bottom line is that at high level play, you’re going to have to win a LOT of the mindgames and be very patient with Lion. At lower level play, Lion seems really strong because of awkward animations for his low attacks and a couple of the mids, which makes him a strong poke character against people that aren’t used to him. Once they are used to Lion’s attacks though, he’s highly punishable and he’ll have to rely on very solid play and he’ll have to gamble a bit more than a lot of others on the mindgames for potential (but not guaranteed) damage. His lack of destructive guaranteed situation winners reinforces the necessity to outpoke and often times out think (or just mixing up really really good, which is harder than it sounds).
But I do love this challenge and its potential in Lion 
I like VF5 Kage, he got a lot of new BS that is really useful. He gets to use a lot more varied mixups than Evo Kage, who was pretty basic.
I’ve read that many consider Kage cheap. I disagree on that, since character’s like Kage in my opinion makes Virtua Fighter such an unique gaming experience. The same goes with Lion who I think has an unique style aswell. No offence but the Bryants are fucking boring, further I hate that brother/brother brother/sister etc. in any 3D fighting game. Even though they don’t fight remotely the same, they both seem dull.
Hey hey hey! Watch that language there, buddy! 
In addition…FYI:
http://virtuafighter.com/view.php?section=vf4&file=vf4ft_frames_guide.html
Very useful frame data guide.
Question: What will change with the XBOX 360 version?(besides the revision C hype?)
…that went well.
I wouldn’t count out online play in VF5.
I mean, Virtua Tennis 3 is online for 360, and theres a VT.TV mode (lets you watch replays of online matches). The name obviously is a reference to VF.TV.
And yes I know what AM2 has said in interviews and the like but hey we are allowed cling to tiny glimmers of hope here, ok? Besides Microsoft pretty much mandates every 360 game has some kind of online component.
As for other changes, people are hoping for a more in depth training mode ala VF4Evo.
I got a little carried away, I meant freaking ^_____________________^
Ok, well then it might have some sort of online component. Online play I seriously doubt. I think it’s reasonable to expect xbox achievements to be added, but I’m not holding out much hope for an improved training mode. Hopefully they’ve had a lot more time to work on this port compared to the PS3 team and maybe that means better/more options.
Lion being “cheap” is a misconception imo. It’s mainly that at early level play, his animations are confusing. Some attacks are low that look like they are mid attack (mainly db+K). His low pokes are good in that they’ll hit the opponent, but they’re actually very punishable. I will also say that he “looks” faster than he really is, in terms of attack execution. At early level play, people get poked to hell by Lion. He’s still good at poking in general, but his pokes leave him in bad disadvantage when he’s blocked.
While we don’t use the term “priority” in VF all that much, I’ll just say that “Lion doesn’t have nearly as much priority as a lot of people think.” But a few of his moves have slight evading properties, but those evading properties are pretty specific.
As for Kage, I agree that he adds a lot of unique things to the series. Especially since VF4. He’ll often get a bad rap in North America as “cheap.” That said, he’s an awesome character and not even close to broken.
Onto 360 talk. An expanded tutorial and training mode would be wonderful. As doubtful as it is, I really hope they implement it. A lot of people are waiting for the 360 version to come out and this includes a lot of people who don’t play VF traditionally. If the 360 version is intended to be targetted at North America, it should definitely have the expanded training mode.
I would like some online component implemented into quest mode, supporting updated ghost data and the ability to update revisions. A nice way of trading replays or even broadcasting replays would be neat. Sort of the VF.TV lounge you could say, voice chat and all. Not that many people would use it, but it would be fun to have broadcasted VF lectures in the community.
I’m not too crazy about online play. If they ever put it in, of course I’ll have the irresistable impulse to play it… but I don’t know if it would ever work right. But it obviously would make VF much more marketable, even if it’s sigh unplayable.
I definitely hope they improve the AI or make it updateable.
And last but not least… PLEASE MAKE THE VIRTUA STICK HIGH GRADE (for PS3) USEABLE ON THE 360 VERSION!
-Chanchai
Hmmm, who knows why the 360 version got online play. Though I’d be sincerely skeptical that Sega wouldn’t have done it to if they ported it themselves.
I’m dead sure that VF5 360 won’t have online…unless Microsoft throws a large, large amount of money at AM2, because no one can say “no” to money.
They named one of the modes VT.TV. To me that says AM2 had their hands in it.
I dunno time will tell.