The Unsung Character-in-a-Specific-Groove Thread

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
1

Yeah, I’m bored here in Muskegon, MI so I’m posting a new thread.

Anyway, the groove system in CvS2 allows for 6 different versions of each character. However, it seems that there are some characters that for some reason or another are used exclusively in one specific groove. The general public only sees these characters in these respective grooves, so their knowledge of how they fare in other grooves is very limited. Having been an A-Groove user for most of the game’s existence, I have used many characters in A-Groove that most people would never consider associating with the groove. However, in my experience, they have had a fair amount of success (at least, in Sunnyvale, CA and in Tokyo, JPN they have - I might be less successful in other areas against other competition). Here are the two most blatant:

A-Zangief

I’ve been a Zangief player for years, which is why I’m so stubborn about using him in what most people consider a worthless groove for him. However, in my experience, it is one of his better grooves. For one, he retains RCs. RC Lariat is absolutely ESSENTIAL against top tiers and ESPECIALLY against big characters. Besides being his best anti-air, against C-Sagat, it virtually makes it an even matchup by creating an invincible, uncrouchable poke. Also, Level 1 FABs provide more than enough invincibility to beat pokes set up by empty jumps, and A-Groove provides the best way to use his meter (after a d/b roundhouse in the corner). Most people consider N and K to be his best grooves, but I think he does extremely well in A-Groove (his lack of a high-damage midscreen is actually an advantage in that he acts as a quality battery for other characters).

A-Yamazaki

I will go down as saying that A-Groove is Yamazaki’s best groove. The whole world seems to think that C is his best, and a small group professes that N is the best groove for him (I was one of them), but in my experiences in Japan, Yama is by far the best in A. C-Groove only gives him 2 things that A does not - airblocking, and Level 2 supers. Yama does not need to jump, so the airblocking “advantage” is a moot point. Level 2s are a nice option, but they are only really good as an anti-air - and at high levels, people will rarely jump on you. The 50/50 setup (roll into either super) is nice, but A-Groove offers guaranteed damage (albeit chip) rather than an “all-or-nothing” scenario. His ground CC can easily be transferred to a chip CC if you guessed wrong after the roll, and you can change that to a mixup CC by inserting his twd+strong. The full meter allows for better protection against K-Groove (by keeping them in the combo for much of the duration of the K meter), and it is easier to combo into than the Level 2 (albeit after a rare jump-in). A-Yama is my most consistent character in Japan, but I seem to be the only one in the world using him. It’s a shame, too, because I adamantly believe it is his best groove.

2

Ive been saying A-yama is the shit for a while around here(edit:baltimore), good show.

edit again: Lemme expound right quick.
I look at A-Yama like C-Yama, just a tank. Just sit around RC’ing sand and swatting away the enemy, I the meter piles up and don’t be afraid to use counters like in C-groove because you’ll get that bar back even faster in A-groove after you kick them away. He does have some reliable ground CC’s that are somewhat low damaginge, but between the counters, s.RHs and the one random beefy combo you’re trying land when the opponent gets frustrated, hopefully that’ll finishes him off. I dunno thought I can’t remember much more, around the time someone around here was playing a pretty good C-Yama so I messed with A a bit but never much to make it good.

4

Hah! What a thread…TOPS.

Kim - apparently always a C/A character. Roll + flash kick is abused all over, infinites, fancy customs, dive kick tricks, etc.

I don’t think K is the best groove for Kim, though it’s by far the best for me. However, I will say that Kim has a lot to offer in K, and it makes him less predictable than the typical roll around Kims I’ve seen everywhere.

Running allows you to ABUSE standing short…it is so ugly. JD helps against annoying cross ups, 'cause Kim doesn’t have a dp. Small jump rh gives a nicely angled poke that can lead to mixups upon landing. It also allows you to Marvel guard break C-groove players. Plus, small jumps can combo into ducking short x super/triple kick if hit deep, which is nice if people think you’re trying to empty jump.

It takes a while to get used to playing Kim without a roll and AHVB dive kicks, but once you get used to it, it’s quite fun. Plus, who doesn’t like getting 2 or even 3 level 3 supers in one round?

5

Hahaha… yeah, my goal for my limited time in America at EVO was to land that combo on SOMEBODY during the weekend. It didn’t matter what the situation was, I was going to go for it. :tup: I had just started playing Yama shortly prior to EVO. Nowadays, with my new team (A-Zangief, Vega, Yama, Blanka in some sort of combination), I don’t even care about landing CCs (none of them are dependant on meter), so my game has gotten better. That’s one thing that makes Yama so great in A - he is solid without the CC, but the addition of the CC makes him even more of a threat.

C and K are played differently. Your analysis of K is right on (although in a run groove, I think that N has the edge over K), but C can’t do any of that. So comparing A to K is irrelevant - C to A however is a much fairer comparison. Their ground game is exactly the same without meter. Yama in a dash groove needs to play keepaway with snake arms and s.roundhouses, and anti-airing with far s.strong, j.strong/fierce, and c.fierce. The airblock function in C is pretty much useless - he doesn’t need to chicken block a Blanka Ball to retaliate it (s.roundhouse), and he should be staying on the ground for all other situations anyway. If he DOES jump, j.forward to activate, ground CC has MUCH more horizontal range than j.forward into super. The only thing left is his 50/50 - which is a gamble. If you guess wrong, there goes 2 levels of your meter, and it’s a free combo for the opponent. With A-Groove, his chip CC has no holes, so you can continue with that for guaranteed damage and time (against K); and if you choose to, you can switch to overhead. Obviously you wouldn’t do that if there is the threat of the level 3 counter, but you are given the OPTION to go for more damage, which is something that no other groove allows. For any other groove, it’s all-or-nothing - A-Groove gives you the chance to at least waste time and do a few ticks worth of damage. Roll activate also is more advantageous than roll super because you can go for the above-mentioned j.rh CC on big characters or c.forward into ground CC, you can start with a twd.strong overhead if they block low, AND if you miss and are stuck in CC mode you can still land your super with some luck here and there. Your chances increase thanks to his counter - midscreen you can counter and combo into c.fierce-rolls, in the corner you can go straight into j.fierces. So in essence,

C-Yama:

  1. Roll, (opponent blocks high or low) -> Level 2 Grab Super
  2. Roll, (opponent jumps) -> Level 2 Guillotine
  3. Opponent jumps in with an attack -> Level 2 Guillotine
  4. Opponent empty jumps -> Level 2 Guillotine or Level 2 Grab (not recommended)

A-Yama:

  1. Roll, (opponent blocks high) -> activate, Ground CC
  2. Roll, (short opponent blocks low) -> activate, twd.strong into Ground CC
  3. Roll, (tall opponent blocks low) -> activate, j.rh CC.
  4. Roll, (opponent blocks high or low) -> activate, chip CC
  5. after #4, (opponent is blocking low) -> twd.strong into Ground CC
  6. after #1, (opponent jumps away) -> careful ground game/anticipate attack with counter -> Ground CC/Super (depending on time)
  7. Opponent jumps in with an attack -> activate, anti-tripguard CC
  8. Opponent empty jumps -> anti-air CC

A-Yama has twice as many options. I didn’t add the in-the-corner option of activating off of a counter because C can also super off of it… but it should be noted that A does much more damage than C in that situation (close to 9K).

6

N-Kyo!

… and N-Hibiki too T_T

7

A-Geese. K-geese is awesome, no doubt about that. But geese’s a groove options are really good too. Not many people besides me use him.

8

N-Chun Li…TOOOO GOOD!

9

N - bison… attack if u want to lose half ur life =/

10

That’s why you only attack Bison with controlled jump-ins and jab attacks when you see he has two dots, a broken stock, and is looking to pull that gimmick tactic on you. Other than that, he’s a character for low jump spammers. Might as well play K-groove if you’re going to do that, and if you’re looking to take advantage of how cheap RC crusher is, he’s better in A or C anyway. C-groove gives you the bonus of being able to roll around and waste your supers like an idiot. :smile:

I’ll take S-Bison before I pick N. At least he can psych opponents out with his “crazy charge” tactics then.

11

OK that’s damn scary. I was just checking recent posts before I posted the question I came up with last night;

“Why isn’t N-Kyo used more?”

I was playing with my P and K groove teams (I use Kyo frequently in both) and whilst playing around with K I was just thinking about how much I’d like to have counter attack. N-Kyo has all the things that make K-Kyo good (run, low jump) bar jd. In place of jd you gain Roll, RC, counter attack, countermovement, and stock break for even better guard crush. All of these things add immensly to Kyo’s rushdown.

Seriously I think N-Iori/Ken/Rock is the most understated team ever.

12

S-king !

13

<3 p-yamazaki…nigga’s a tank

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yeah i acutally tried out K-kim and like him a lot. JD helps against crossup happy characters like chun li, a raged kim can guard crush like geese, and short jump leads to crazy mixups. My only problem is i can’t jd consistently :sad: . I can parry but can’t jd :xeye:

yo man when’s the next time you’re gonna come back to LI? i need someone good to play against. The only good comp i get consistently around here is from one PA player that comes to green acres every now and then and at my friends place, which i hardly go to.

15

I play N-Kyo, replacing my N-Rock. Kyo and Iori fits my kind of team somehow. I understand K-Kyo and P-Kyo, having Just Defend and Parry can also certainly give you a free MP into the chain attack. Kyo’s roll is…not really impressive. In fact I think its one of the worse rolls, if I’m not mistaken.

Why do I play N-Kyo…er…because I suck at doing Just Defend and Parrying. And I couldn’t live with the roll option. Plus, I hate dashing. N-Groove is probably the best groove for me :slight_smile:

I love playing N-Hibiki. For some reason, N-Hibiki is the only time I really make use of N’s maneuvering tactics. I just love poking people to death. :devil:

16

what about K-dhalsim? he’s got anti A-groove built in, good antiairs good L3, and run gives him more options.

17

I still cant scissor kick xx mpc =(

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i dunno, i think airblock kinda comes in handy sometimes, against certain jumpins that may trade unfavorably with his antiairs, like sagat jumping rh for instance. (of course i can rc to try to antiair, but i dont always want to risk it, so i might just chicken block instead.) also i like jumping up and down alot since his j. fwd is tricky like that and has similar properties to sagats (stay right out of opponents antiair range, if you think theyre going to antiair you, stick out nothing and punish when you hit the floor, if not, just j. fwd).

plus the low fwd option tree is nice, thats why i like cgroove better…blocked low fwd, command throw, if you think theyre going to attack after or sit there, lvl 2 grab super, if not wait a second and guillotine.

i know why you like agroove better gunter, you just love to land those sexy customs of yours on me ;_; i can’t do customs for the life of me.

19

I think that Dhalsim as a character is unsung. I must say that Iyo’s Dhalsim is *very * annoying to play against, in C or in N. However, I don’t see an *advantage * to using run over dash or vice versa. You can use run to pressure, but if you don’t have it, you’re establishing distance, which is good for Dhalsim anyway. It seems that C is more complete to me, with Level 2 cancels that lead to guard crushes, but the key to his annoyance is how good his defense is. The thing with K is, that defense works against him. Most people will turtle up against a raged K character, so it makes it harder for Dhalsim to land supers.

No, actually, I like how he doesn’t need to use meter, but his options to use the meter are better than for C. For C, it’s almost always all-or-nothing. Like you said, “if you *think * theyre going to attack after or sit there, lvl 2 grab super”… if they jump away/up, it’s a waste and more than likely a free combo for them. With A, you at least have an option to do some ticks of damage, keep them locked up to waste K meter, and/or land a counter during your CC mode to lead to a combo into super.

I appreciate people contributing to the thread and all, but how about some analysis? Just naming a character doesn’t let anyone know why that character should be reconsidered. Give some reasons! :tup:

20

I’ll throw in my favorite character as well: C Kyo

First off, the cons of him: All Kyo’s have most of their trouble centered on getting in. For C-Kyo, in comparison to his other incarnations, this is especially troublesome. His dash, while it does clear a huge distance relatively quickly, can be seen from a few years away. If you use a dash inappropriately, at best you’ll take a roundhouse to the face and get pushed out. At worst, combo xx super and your done.

His roll is pretty crappy, which limits the usefulness of C. His alpha counter is alright, but it’s definitely not something you can rely on too much. No low jump, so you lose a few mixups in that way. And, of course, he lacks parry, which always gives him a pretty powerful psychological aspect (alliteration central over here).

And now for the pros, as I see them: Extremely good lvl 2 cancels which supplement his stun game quite substantially. If your watching carefully, a roll can get you in on your opponent with little to no effort, if they carelessly throw a hadouken or somethin like it. A well placed dash can also have the same effect, but it’s most certainly not an abusable thing.

Air block can also give him an edge. While it’s not always likely, there is the possibility of a late air block into combo, and with Kyo, that becomes a potentially huge threat. I personally dont use RC’s on Kyo, since doing it at an improper time with the wrong attack can equal a combo or super straight to his dome, but RC rekka can be useful, if only for pushing them into the corner.

21

ok, i’m going to say p-yama is the best because he just becomes this big fucking tank. vs. yama you basically have to be able to outpoke him or get in on him. If you jump over his whiffed rh or snake arm, yama gets an easy option select parry fierce into snakearm that pushes you back out. Low jumps also become pretty damn useless. I think i’m just bitter because it’s hard to counterpoke that stupid rh when it’s used right. Also in p yama gets a lot more guaranteed uses for his meter after parries. I hate you albert <3.

Hrrm, i like using c-rock but he’s not a very great character, rock has a very good dash that leads to a lot of run shenanigans midscreen after a knockdown and he can store supers for use after any throw or low short, missing lowjump is a bitch though