I mean if you really wanted to you could use Dorm(Dark Hole)/Doom (Plasma Beam) if you want a neutral assist. You lose out on the best assist for Dorm, though.
I kind of agree with KiyaaKing that having a neutral assist makes it a little easier. I’ve tried Spidey/Dorm/Doom for a while, but maybe I’m just not good enough yet to hold a team like that together. Fortunately for me I actually love Doom as a character, and I just need to fill in a third spot with a character that’s not terrible (aka Iron Man or Thor) and not Vergil.
For a good neutral, I actually really like Drones but I’m not sure how I feel about putting Sentinel on a team with a character that’s already not that good (Spiderman) and I also like Hawkeye greyhound. My only issue with Spidey/Hawk/Doom is that you lose out on TAC infinites and not that great DHC damage. Unless you put Hawkeye last and use Layo’s team, I guess, but I’m not sure if that’s an optimized order.
Are there any better ways to get more guaranteed kills with Spidey/Hawk/Doom without relying on resets? It feels like wasting 3 bars on a kill every time isn’t worth the meter. Do you just DHC into Hawkeye and then chip them out with the little life they have left?
I’m starting to learn Dante and Hawkeye so I’ll be running Spidey Dante Hawkeye. As for running Hawkeye second, or hell any keep away character second it boils down to how confident you are in your meterless resets and how experienced you are with reading opponents well enough to keep them out. One of the best joys in my opinion about Spidey/keep away teams is that even if you can’t kill you can get very good damage end in a web throw and get a safe raw tag to set up another set of shenanigans. Spidey/Morrigan, for example, Spidey builds the bar during his combo and assuming it’s missiles in the back you get about 700+ meterless end with web throw raw tag into Morrigan and start the trap before they get up. They can raw tag in of course but that starts their next character off on a bad foot. Morrigan also can safely raw tag Spidey back in to repeat the process right before AV runs out. I’m sure everyone knows this by now but one of Spidey’s strengths is the fact that he can be paired up with some of the best keep away characters in the game, still have synergy and be able to switch to their neutral on the fly.
Dorm/Doom can be really good for Nova if you run Plasma Beam. I don’t know what flaws you’re referring to, but Nova’s best assist is in Plasma Beam and Dorm can use Centurion Rush for layered unblockable setups. Dorm doesn’t necessarily need missiles. It makes it easier to do his zoning, but Plasma Beam can do much more for him in certain matchups like vs Morrigan. Spider-Man can use Plasma Beam very well too.
@xero15 About 1/3 of the cast CANNOT escape max-range UWT, which includes Vergil and Wolverine. Also how can you say the player is 100% blame for having trouble opening someone up without a proper neutral assist? Even Zero needs neutral assists. It’s just how this game works. The more common Spidey/Dorm/Doom team comp(the one I’m assuming you’re saying is best) uses missiles which can only be a neutral assist in a narrow range of situations. There’s also Plasma Beam, of course, but even then Jam Session is better and I’m finding that Magneto is ultimately a better/more versatile character than Dorm or Doom. Plasma Beam is a top-tier neutral assist, don’t get me wrong, but I think Spidey would much rather have his neutral support more vertically oriented since SJ height is a much harder place for him to score a hit than near the ground.
Stop. Just stop. Spidey has no hard time hard time confirming from super jump, two… Vergil and Wolverine get out of UWT FREE period. Wolverine can drill claw out and Vergil can super. We also aren’t arguing who the better character is between Dorm and Magnus. We are talking about Spidey. I never said Spidey Magnus Dante was bad I said it wasn’t the best. I also never said that Spidey doesn’t need a neutral as that changes from team to team, don’t twist what I say. I said the ones who feel he needs a beam tend to be the ones who have problems opening up people. I then went on to say everything you’re saying you can do with your S/M/D S/D/D can do as well.
Now if you want to argue which horizontal assists work better with him in general then the best would be Hawkeye’s or Taskmaster’s followed by disruptor unibeam and plasma beam with daggers somewhere not too far behind. Arrows, both of them, give better ground control at the ranges he needs without knockdown or reductions in hsd. Mags can do this to an extent but one
The best middle for Nova/Doom would be Spencer, and the best for Spidey/Doom would be Dormammu. It doesn’t get any simpler than that, and that may never change.
Dormammu can’t set up unblockables with Nova nearly as well as everybody else, due to his weak ground mobility; he’s far better off with a low-hitting assist, and there’s no point for that anyways, since he can set them up fairly well on his own or for others with flame carpet.
Plasma Beam with Dormammu is merely to deal with the opponent’s assists. Same goes for Spidey, aside from maybe the fact that it helps Spidey transition from air to ground in certain match-ups where that becomes a hassle.
I’m still waiting on someone to define what a neutral assist is for me, since it’s starting to appear that each assist has it’s own situational use and that assists are essentially unsafe when called in a “neutral” situation. That term is tossed around like the unoriginal teams and highly predictable strategies I see frequently used in this game.
Anyone can escape max-range UWT. It’s called a back-tech. That thing kinda puts you out of range at that point… Regardless, every character has an option to escape UWT when it’s being used a reset, the last thing it was meant for when excluding combo extension.
Missiles isn’t there because it’s a “neutral” assist, despite whatever shallow context that word is being used in, it’s there because it’s a lockdown assist. Same with Dark Hole. It’s what Spidey needs more than anything in his game. I’ve been saying this since before Ultimate dropped.
We have over 4 or 5 ways to convert into a full combo from super jump height, and at least 2 or 3 of them are brain-dead when practiced correctly. Not to mention Spidey’s one of the few characters in the game that actually has access to an animation super that takes the opponent to the ground and is fairly easy to DHC into for enough damage to take out that character… or you can just x-factor if you don’t want them on the screen anymore.
Why the hell am I posting on these pointless-ass forums again? I learn more from 5 minutes of training mode than I do from here.
Spiderman sucks with disrupter. He doesn’t have the left/right capabilities to utilize it for mixups. It’s only purpose I’ve found is to put durability on the screen and keep assists in check.
I don’t think spider-man is that bad with disruptor. it can be used to quickly clear the bottom part of the screen so spider-man can start plink dashing in a little bit and as you said its great for sniping assist calls like missiles. It’s quick enough that you can use it to keep putting pressure on the opponent. Disruptor + web ball -> plink dash isn’t bad because disruptor somewhat protects spider-man while he gets the web ball out. Also, you can get some pretty nice instant overhead j. setups with disruptor because of its speed.
Hmm didn’t notice my post was cut off. Oh well I don’t remember what I was saying but Spidey isn’t the best with disruptor because of its speed and lack of hit stun so confirming off it randomly is an odd task but workable. Unfortunately it also changes the hsd on his combos as well and scales damage for them. The only real reason it’s the best is because of its speed and the fact it doesn’t scale as bad as Doom or Iron Man
Disruptor best as a defensive assist and when used to snipe the opponent’s assist, but that’s basically any horizontal assist that comes out that fast. It’s fantastic when you are used to it and know when to call it. If Rayray can make it look easy to confirm off of it with Ryu, then it should be trivial for a Spidey that is comfortable with it.
mag beam is ok for spidey and he can confirm off it quite easily. You do have to change the way you play though so you can be in good positions to combo off the mag beam since it hits so fast.
I’ve changed all my combos to the web throw loop to get around the mag beam not giving me an extension. Web throw loop just does SO much for spidey and it gets around some weird problems he has on all of these builds. I never fuck it up on big characters anymore so its only a matter of time before I get it on the small guys just as easy.
I basically use my mag beam like airborne said. To snipe assists and allow spidey to sneak in. Then I establish with dante and start going for stuff. I used to play spidey\sent and so stuff like poke+drones, web ball, webzip upfwd. Cut off the angles, make them deal with drones etc… you don’t get that on mag beam anymore which hurts his game a bit
It looks like a few of you guys need to look at your UWT setups again. Back tech does not get out of max-range UWT because by max-range I am accounting for back tech in the corner…Drill Claw and Dimension Slash do not get out of a good UWT reset. The one I use most often is after a web throw to corner wait until the opponent gets as close to the ground as possible before doing a backdash :h: into it(you can also do a combo into Spider Sting~bite in the corner then plink the backdash into :h:). The timing is easy and any character that can’t gain upward momentum in the first few frames after popping out of the combo will eat the reset. Wolverine’s Drill Claw has too much startup, and Vergil…I don’t even know why you thought he could get out, but he ends up running into the throw during DS. The setup also covers forward techs into mash, so don’t bother bringing that up. I’ve already ran through this setup with every character, and the only ones that can avoid it for free are the airdash/double jump characters and characters with moves like Morrigan’s Soul Drain and Spidey’s H web ball who gain upward momentum as soon as they input the move. While that’s still a lot of characters that can get out, it makes getting a kill off some of the important “need to kill” characters like Wolvie and Vergil guaranteed off any hit or throw. Call me full of shit on everything else if you want, but this I KNOW I’m right about. If you want to see for yourself you can just record your favorite corner carry combo into the setup I described with Spidey in training mode and with the other character try whatever methods you can think of to get out of it with back tech -> Drill Claw or whatever. You’ll get scooped before you even start moving.
With the max distance setup have you tried neutral teching and doing a divekick/helmbreaker to reach the ground as fast as possible? With Vergil have you tried forward teching and hitting spidey with j.? I would try it myself but I can’t right now.
@DeskLampTV I just ran through your examples just to be sure. They have too much startup. I think what makes the :h: setup so good is that :h: does enough hitstun to where the UWT will run through most of its startup before the opponent has a chance to move. In case you’re wondering, for the tests I’m using Wolvie/Vergil/Doom and Spidey/Mag/Dante as the dummy. I’m recording the Spidey combo(for this team I use the Spider Sting into backdash plink :h:) then playing it back and waiting for the reset to get out with Wolvie and Vergil and Doom. Wolvie and Vergil have too much startup on their stuff to get out. Doom can get out because he has an airdash that gives him upward momentum on the first frames(this is important since a couple of air dashes, like Morrigan’s, are not fast enough).
Im sure that vergil’s S gives him a little elevation that allows him to be just high enough to scape the UWT range. So as long as you mash S with vergil you can get out of the set up
My friend does this all the time
No, if you do the setup right Vergi’s air :s: doesn’t outlast the duration on UWT(Spidey’s grab super is unique in that it’s active frames are longer than any other character’s ground-to-air grab). It almost gets out, but only delays the grab by half a second or so. The key to the setup is to hit with :h: when the opponent is just about to touch the ground. The plink backdash version is easier to time, but the web throw backdash version is easier to execute. You’ll know you didn’t hit them low enough if Spencer is able to get out with his zip swing or Vergil can get out with air :s: like you described.
I did some testing some testing of my own. Both vergil and wolvie get out of it free. For wolvie all you need to do is back tech and up forward drill claw. You can actually react to the superflash and get out. For vergil, you just neutral tech super and dhc out. You can react to the flash with vergil too.
You definitely didn’t do it right then. Are you doing the setup I’m describing? Or are you doing a web ball setup or a midscreen setup or something? The setup I keep describing only works in the corner, and I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to make a setup that accounts for all techs midscreen. I don’t know what you mean by “react to the superflash” but for my setup even airdash characters have to know it’s coming before hand. You only have a few frames to input whatever you can to get out, and in most cases only dashes can get out in time. I don’t know what setup you used, but I would advise never using web ball as an UWT reset tool. It’s only useful reset feature (forced neutral tech) was taken away from Vanilla to Ultimate, and since its hitstun when used late in combos is pretty much non-existent using it is equivalent to using a st:l: or something. IMO that’s a terrible reset tool. For UWT you have to use something with a little more hitstun so that the opponent doesn’t pop out until about halfway through the pre-flash startup.
I didn’t do the setup wrong. I didn’t do it midscreen. I didn’t use web ball or st.:l:. I did the setup you are describing and I got out of it. Here is the combo:
air dash j.:s: cr. cr.:h: xx :l: web swing j.:h: j.:s: xx :l: web swing J. j.:h: j.:s:, land, cr.:h: xx :l: web swing j. j. j.:s:, land, st.:h: xx :h: spider-sting, land, dash back st.:h: xx UWT
What I mean by react to the superflash is you can hold back with wolvie and then do drill claw up forward when spidey flashes. Idk if you tested this with lag or some shit but you can definitely react to it if you anticipate it.
Whoa, if Wolverine can REACT to what you did then you had to be inputting the UWT late. Back tech doesn’t get Wolverine out on it’s own, so if you can get out with Drill Claw then you are not doing the UWT as soon as the :h: hits. His Drill Claw is not instant. He is curled up in a ball in midair for a little bit before he travels. In that (this is not on a laggy monitor, btw) the UWT should reach the superflash and come out before his Drill Claw startup finishes. The same is true for Helm Breaker. The histun from :h: only gives a window of a few frames. I’m doing your exact combo and even if I input Drill Claw on the very first frame (meaning the back tech doesn’t even go all the way through) Wolverine does not even start moving before the throw. It’s THAT tight. I’d say try it again, but at this point I’m starting to believe no one is going to give this setup a serious look until I bust this out on a stream or something…
Edit: another possibility could be that you didn’t end up all the way in the corner when you did the Spider Sting. That will also make this setup not work right(I did the setup a little further away and Wolverine was able to Drill Claw out as you described). I genuinely want you guys to see how this setup is no joke, but please be willing to give it a fair assessment before writing it off.
Aside from Drill Claw, I also decided to do a more thorough test on Vergil’s air :s: using the same combo. Interestingly enough, there is a VERY small window (probably 1 or 2 frames) where if he does it after the super flash right before the web reaches him the air :s: will escape the whole thing. I can only do it successfully about 10% of the time, but it’s definitely there (if you do it too early he will get caught as he comes down and if you do it too late it obviously the :s: won’t come out). I’ll have to see if this is also true for the web throw to corner version but Vergil might just have a way of escaping this for free. Won’t stop me from using it, though. The timing is VERY strict and Vergil’s particular escape method sets him up for my meterless alternative reset.
setups with disruptor because of its speed.