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VF match vids are the most fun to watch because it’s pure skill that makes a comeback and you have to be on your A-game the whole time since there’s no bars of any kind or any comeback mechanics.
There are a few of those- but the top tiers generally don’t have them.
does any char in SSF4 that’s not dead bottom tier have more then 1 7-3?
You can not compare ST to SSF4. SSF4 has great competition in the sense may people play it, but not in the sense it has been mastered. ST is still getting new tricks to this day, and the tier lists as of now have nothing to do with Dee Jay as nr 1 from 15 years ago. Those whole full match-up diagrams full of 5’s and 6’s for SF4 are already known to be BS, and many fair or close match-ups related to projectile characters were judged to be so because players were not only still not used to them but not used to the to-go counters Capcom had added. An appropriate diagram for SF4 will never be obtained as it is a replaceable game that has already been replaced, in the same way SSF4 has been replaced by AE - an arguably worse game - and AE will be replaced by SFvT. And ST had a “fair balance analysis” in the sense that the game does not give the one losing a hit-confirmable chance of comebacks in its engine. Want more balance in SF4? Increase the Ultra damage.
The balance of a game should be judged as Maj pointed out: by the number of viable characters, not by the number of weak ones. 10 viable characters out of 30 is much better than 5 out of 10.
My point is: older games have their unbalanced match-ups revealed and proved, while the commercial ones will be played by some time and then dropped, not giving enough time for players to go on and on with cycles of new techniques and new counters for such techniques. Everything looks full of options and people have not yet mastered which are optimal.
Vampire Savior, arguably 15 viable characters out of 15.
[media=youtube]BGu8nWY97Cc[/media]
Best bits are at 5:48 when that one Lilith (bottom tier) starts beating everyone.
sasquatch is top tier. and doesnt the game have some bad match ups? everybody is viable though.
Every game is going to have a “top tier”, the difference is the distance in power/viability between the top tiers and the low tiers, and the distance isn’t very far at all in Vampire Savior. Every single character is tournament viable.
Also that Lei Lei player made me very happy.
In my pants.
i support this. also, whoever the team was that did this game needs to come back and make it. i dont think i want ONO ANYWHERE near the sequel if one gets made.
VSav only has 3 tiers anyhow: high, mid and low. Also, the matchups are subjective since last I checked they weren’t doing it by pure win-loss ratios, but by percieved matchup difficulty.
Gives me a fizzing sensation.
Down there.
so you want ASW involved then
Give it to Niitsuma/the MvC3 team then since Neo_G is still in it.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?!! thats news to me. but i guess if i could have my cake and eat it too then yes, i guess i would. but i think the reality (lets pretend for a second it could EVER happen) of the whole thing is VSav2’s balance got to where it was because they just constantly hammered at the game over and over (kinda like what they did with guilty gear) but somehow put in the just the right nails in to get where it needed to be. i think right now, i dont necessarily believe they could do it, at least if BBCS2 is any indication. i think alot of fighting games, both balance and gameplaywise, are byproducts of their time and where the devs were at the time. could we be led to believe that ASW could actually bring us VSav2 level of balance? in that, given time and attention to matchups for their respective character, even those thought to be low tier are tournament viable. to me, that is true balance.
i actually think that its more about the vision of the person in charge, even when asw made GG and BB, the people in charge about said vision of what is the personality of the game are diferent, look for example at battle fantasia, a game that imo is a good example of balance, and thinking about it deserves more love (hell i hear a lot of people asking for games with the classic vibe on them, but they keep ignoring said games if they arent made by capcom :/); from my experience with the game, i think that everyone are viabe, i can assure you that almost everyone who developed that game is involved on BB as well, but the way that both games works and how they try to achive balance differs because the people in charge of what the vision of the game is, are different
the think that we should ask is who was in charge of the balance and game direction on vs
btw i think that bbcs2 is well balanced, makoto is not as bad as people claim that she is, is just that like any other overused char it gets boring, the same with yun, he is not as bad as people say either, but that its my opinion
Battle Fantasia did need more love. It had a unique charm (then again it was the only FG I know of that had a female producer), and the gameplay idea wasn’t bad, though I felt like some things were tacked on for no reason.
If I won the lottery and was going FG design, I’d have her as my character designer at least.
i think that part of the reason why BF didnt get so much love was that the updates present on the console werent made for the arcades aswell, from what i can recall, the original one had some stuff like infinites (iirc watson and ashley had them) and something about not having throw invulnerability on wakeup by command grabs (dunno if the regular throws too), these things were what what defined the original tier list, those problems were adressed on the console version giving us the better game it took them 2 revisions and basically no changes outside the moves involved on the infinites
as for the game having stuff that seems that were added for no reason, i think that maybe you are talking about the heat mode, this was forced when the game was developed, since the heads up didnt thought that a pure classic game would be well received, and tbh i think that was a nice addition, it give the parry system a more depth
another funny thing is that bf was planned as a 2d game originally, you can see some concept art about the game on the gallery
Arcana Heart 3 is probably the most balanced fighter with more than 2 characters. The arcana system makes it so every character can win against every other character and the low tiers are not that much worse than the top tiers. All arcanas except sacred are also viable with some character and it’s not like using sacred makes it so you can’t win it’s just there’s no reason to use it over other arcanas because it’s not as good and provides no useful specialty role.
Here’s my take on this (no order)
- SF2: Hyper Fighting- All characters are viable, no match-ups worse than 6-4 (even Bison can own), all potential strategies and options work with all characters (and match-ups like Ryu vs Bison are nowhere earn as lop-sided as say O.Sagat vs Cammy in ST). Might be the most balanced fighting game ever.
- Vampire Savior- For the same reasons above (and others in still this forum).
- Guilty Gear XX:AC- Ditto. While Eddie may be a step ahead of everyone else, he is by no means unbeatable, as even some of his easiest matchups (ex. Anji) can be a bitch for him with the right player.
- Virtua Fighter 4:FT- Same again, this is one of the few games where tiers and even match-ups don’t matter and its all in the players skill. VF5:FS might not count (though it still has great balance) since the C-tier characters (like Sarah) have it kind of rough against Akira, Lau and Shun.
- Tekken 5: Dark Ressurection- Same as VF4, especially after getting rid of the crap that plagued T5.0. Yoshi was the very worse in T5DR, yet had far more success competitively than most high-tiers.
- Samurai Shodown 2- This game got to many near 50/50’s for me to past it up (though Uyko can be a pain for some characters like Nicotine and maybe Hanzo)
- Street Fighter Alpha 2- Almost like HF but with somewhat more variety. Chun-Li may have been whored to death in this game’s heyday (in Japan at least), but its nothing like her 3s verison.
- Tatsunoko vs Capcom:UAS - Its pretty self-evident with this one.
Games that almost make it: VF5:FS, MSH, T6BR, KOF2002UM, SSB64 (if you consider it a fighting game though), AH3, FFS, LB2, HnK.
While stuff like ST, KOF98, 3s, TTT, MvC2, and Garou are awesome, no one with a straight face can say these games are perfectly balanced (or in MvC2 remotely balanced). There’s too much stuff going against these games when it comes to character balance.
Just so I follow, we talk about Testament/Eddie unblockable/100%s on the rest of teh cast and Johnny /Bridget having only Uphill battles Guilty Gear Accent Core?
Right.
Yes, player skill can do wonders, the games are still unbalanced.
I can actually see it. Take SSF4, have only Ryu.
Iconic Fighting game character, most basic moveset, Ryu can counter what ryu does, tests your fundamentals, one of the most exciting mirror matches.
That should become SF5, most balanced fighter ever.
I am pretty sure someone has made a comment with similar points, but I wanted to put that out there before I read all the pages.
As for a game, that match-ups and mechanics let it come close to ‘balanced’…
Perhaps Tatsunoko vs Capcom.
Mugen is the most balanced.
the fact that GGAC has been declared by many players as one of the most balanced is for a reason, johnny has only one real uphill battle and its zappa, considered around 6.5 : 3.5 to 7:3
and the only char considered unviable is bridget and still many players do well with him in tournaments
also, testament and zato dont have 100% on the cast, wtf are you smoking?
and for their unblockables, they are as effective as how much you let them put you in a situation that lets them landing them, im not saying that its impossible for them to do it, but you know what i mean
the reason why the top tiers are in the top, its because they basically have 6:4 matchups against the cast
while the low tiers are 6:4 against them outside some 6.5 : 3.5 with 1 or 2 chars