The Sweet Science: Balrog (Boxer) Q&A Thread

Oblivion · December 23, 2011, 8:40am

Boxer v Gief

If I do a lp dash straight, and it connects, can I backdash in time before gief does a lp spd? Thus far, the only way I can escape that punish is if i FADC out of the straight. Gief seems to recover from hit stun before me (which is sick fast).

3nigmat1c · December 23, 2011, 11:57am

yes, this is true, but only for lp.ds, on block it’s -3, on hit it’s -2. So reversal lp.spd can punish you on hit and block unless you space lp.ds very well from neutral (it’s possible, but at the absolute tip of it’s range). In a combo/blockstring lp.ds should always be punishable on hit and block by lp.spd. You should combo into mp/hp/ex since they’re safer on HIT (not block). Those dash punches still put you in range for lp.spd, but you can jump or backdash out of it (you can’t walk out of it though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GqfAIGz_xBI#t=218s <~~ that’s probably very true for higher strength dash punches on hit too.

Also check the gief punishes post it has a laundry list of information about his SPDs.

Oblivion · December 23, 2011, 12:09pm

Thanks enig. Did you check on the HB frame rates? I remember posting that they may have shortened his recovery a tad from AE.

3nigmat1c · December 23, 2011, 12:18pm

when i counted I counted about 50, so that’s about equal to the AE frame data. It feels like the recovery is faster, but if faster, it’s not enough to be useful. Claw can cr.hk, if you use late hp.hb to avoid the izuna drop :[

Oblivion · December 23, 2011, 12:31pm

Yeah I felt it was faster, but good players will punish you regardless.

Graham · December 29, 2011, 12:07am

I’m thinking since balrog is a charge char there is one scenario where we aren’t very effective for high damage unlike say ryu or ken and thats one of those crossup empty jumps we do where we try to throw someone after landing from a crossup where they usually tech the throw.This might be a good use for the U2?

3nigmat1c · December 29, 2011, 12:28am

yes, but without the 720, the input is really hard to get consistently since we have to do 2xhcb, the input is more lenient in 2012. You either have to do the 2xhcb before you cross them up or after you cross them up and press the button inputs as you touch the ground, difficult indeed or at least in my opinion.

Tooserius · December 30, 2011, 9:22pm

I know this sounds stupid but is Jab into sweep a one frame link?

Dude who did Rog tutorial I was supposed to do says it is and doesn’t see the usefulness in Rogs frame traps…

3nigmat1c · December 30, 2011, 9:31pm

well, depends on what jab, st.lp into cr.hk is a 1f link on hit, on block far st.lp is +5 on block, so st.lp, cr.hk on block is a frame trap with a 3f gap, if you use cr.lp, it’s the same situation except its a 4f gap since cr.lp is only +4 on block.

st.lp, to cr.hk on hit is a 1f link, because st.lp is +8 on hit, and cr.hk has 8f of startup. the math is really weird, but because attacks go active on their final startup frame, it’s considered a 1f link.

delusional11 · December 31, 2011, 3:34pm

You mean the Rog AE 2012 tutorial by XUpYourGameX?

KaMaji · January 2, 2012, 2:41am

Getting back in to rog after maining Cody for a while. My execution has improved and I’m trying to get these exRU loops consistent. My question is, is it better to do exRU cr.LP cr.LK xx HB or cr.LPx2 xx HB? I noticed LP is used in Hard Trial 5 according to the “advanced Boxer mindgames” thread, but I’ve been doing cr.LP cr.LK. Is there any advantage at all to 2 cr.LPs?

3nigmat1c · January 2, 2012, 11:52am

just damage and the mid-low, in the event you miss your link, you might still get the combo if they’re not blocking low. Personally i think you’re more likely to chain if you do cr.lp, cr.lp since you have so much room (4f) to link cr.lp.

KaMaji · January 2, 2012, 9:21pm

Yeah I thought it was easier to chain c.lp. I was just wondering if there was some secret reason why you wouldn’t do a c.short. Silly question really, but thanks!

Tooserius · January 3, 2012, 3:23am

Yea, seems I wasn’t paying all that much attention. I believe it is. I just want some outside confirmation. I practiced it to the point where I’m not sure anymore. lol

I know its sad

PowersofTen · January 3, 2012, 11:34pm

What is the best way to respond after blocking Zangief’s green hand?

3nigmat1c · January 3, 2012, 11:58pm

[media=youtube]GqfAIGz_xBI[/media]
                                                Frame Advantage
Attack                  Startup Active  Recovery Block  Hit
lp banishing flat      11f    2f      21f      -7f    -5f
[LIST=1]
[]On block, if hit on the first active frame you enter 14f of recovery (21f - 7f), because you recover 7f earlier than Zangief you can punish with any attack that’s in range and goes active before he recovers.
[]on hit you enter 16f of recovery (21f - 5f), because you recover 5f earlier than Zangief you can punish with anything that fulfills the punish requirement in 5f. At worst the lp.gh comes into contact with you and you can always punish with st/cr.lp . At best you block and punish with cr.mp/cl.hk
[/LIST]
But what if Gief FADCs the attack?!

Gief’s dash is the same forwards and backwards (26f), so it makes the math easier. When an attack is cancelled into a focus attack, it converts the remaining frames (active and recovery) into a focus attack or focus attack and dash. Because you were hit, you encounter the same amount of blockstun that you would usually encountered if he didn’t FADC.

Gief connects on the first active frame
BLOCK: Gief - 22f -> 26f Opp - 15f Frame advantage[-11]
HIT : Gief - 22f -> 26f Opp - 17f Frame advantage[-9]

Aside from the distance requirement (whether he fwd dashes or backdashes) Gief is at -11 if he fadc’s lp.GH on block and at -9 on hit. Punishing with something other than U1/super has a distance requirement. If Gief hit’s you with just the tip of his hand and back dashes, you’re not in range for anything but super and U1. Balrog can punish with st/cr.hk, st.hp, super and U1 if Gief is very close to you. If he dashes fwd, you can punish with U2 as fwd.dashes are completely vulnerable and non airborne. Zangief’s symmetric dashes are specific to him; most characters have faster forward dashes than backdashes. For example Balrog is 18f forward and 22f backward, while Sagat is 18f forward and 29f backward.
Banishing Flat (Green hand)
                        frame advantage
strength startup active recovery block hit
jab      11      2      21      -7    -5
strong  13      2      22      -8    -6
fierce  16      2      23      -9    -7
ex      13      1*1    27      -9    +1
Hitboxes: jab/strong/fierce/ex

Looking at the frame data, you can see why you may think Gief ONLY has ex.GH. non-ex.gh is punishable on block AND hit (if within range obviously). In general, they are also punishable if Gief FADCs depending on if he hits you at max distance or not (this was visited earlier as an example in the first post). Also if gief does ex.gh to chip you or whatever from neutral, you can grab it on reaction like ex.dashes from about 1-2 squares apart.

cl.hk, cr.mk, cr.mp, cr.lp are going to be your best reversal normals, spacing and stregnth of green hand determine which are viable and when. Simplest high damage punish will be cr.mp xx hp.hb, which is about ~200/250 dmg/stun even with scaling. Read the rest of that post for more info on punishing gief and punishing in general.

PowersofTen · January 4, 2012, 12:41am

Thanks! I’m facing Zangief a lot because one of my friends is maining him, this looks very helpful.

Yari · January 5, 2012, 2:01am

Damn, you guys need to explain me why is cr.MK so good… I can pretty much stuff/counter Shoto’s low pokes with this when I dont want to risk a cr.HK
Is it really good or am I just lucky?

Tooserius · January 5, 2012, 4:11am

good for block strings. I believe its +4 on block.

Don’t quote me on that

3nigmat1c · January 5, 2012, 12:14pm

yeh, cr.mk is gdlk, it just has a lot of startup and not a lot of horizontal range. mixing in cr.mk and cr.hk can mess with your opponents mind since cr.mk has the same startup as cr.hk, but faster recovery so you can use it to bait. More active frames, and its +9 on CH (it might be 10 but i’m not sure). You can link just about everything if you get it, sick.

+4 is right, it’s got the same advantage on hit/block as cr.lp, just has more frame advantage on CH