JMS Grounds Superman - Comics Feature at IGN
Here’s a link to a good interview with JMS. It’s got me interested in the new Superman, Run.
I was looking for this thread for quite some time, thanks Ronin for digging it up…
G00dy if you’re here, there are some things I’d like to get your opinion on. (which I have to dig up then 
)
I read a thingy about this a little while ago. I guess it sounds kind of interesting, but only because they seem to recognize how badly things have been going and they’re at least trying to fix it. It doesn’t convince me of the merit of buying the monthly Super-books, though.
Shoot. I can’t guarantee that my answers will be any good, but I’ll try to shake the dust off the “Superman” part of my brain’s logic processing center.
Here it is G00dy, one of the greatest Pieces I’ve read about the Pre-Crisis Superman (full credit goes to Nightwing.)
this is it.
**Superman: Overgrown Boy Scout? The perils of fighting for Truth, Justice and the American Way in an America that doesn’t want your help.
I’m not one of those fans who think Superman:The Movie was perfect, or even particularly great, but there was a cool moment in the film that got me thinking.
It happens when Lois is interviewing Superman and asks, “Why are you here?” He answers earnestly, “to fight for truth, justice and the American way.”
I remember the line got laughs in the theater. After all, it was 1978, and the audience had been through 'Nam and Watergate, and the campy Batman TV show, so this kind of sentiment seemed written to appeal to a cynical, ironic sense of humor. And yet, Christopher Reeve delivered it with such conviction that he came off not as a deluded doofus, but a genuine, old-fashioned nice guy optimist.
Lois quips that if this is his mission, he’s going to be at odds with every politician in Washington, and Superman answers not with a knowing wink, or a “Ha! I was just kidding” attitude, but with another earnest line: “I’m sure you don’t really mean that, Lois.”
This shuts her up, and I remember it got the audience quiet, too. This is the part where we figure out Superman’s character. Here is a guy who really believes in the basic goodness not just of America, but of people in general. He’s not embarassed to admit he believes it, and moreover, he knows that deep down, we believe it, too. Lois the hardened reporter has, like the rest of us, bought into the ethos of cynicism, which masquerades as sophistication but at its heart is a kind of deep-seated cowardice, a timidity that prevents us from changing things we convince ourselves are beyond changing. But somewhere inside, we still want to believe that people are basically good, and that things will eventually turn out well for humanity. All we need is someone to encourage us to do our part.
Forget the super-strength, the x-ray vision, even the flying. Superman’s real power lies in his ability to inspire us to be decent people. Here is a guy with the power take whatever he wants, and instead he uses it to help others. He believes in the potential of humanity, which is cool, but he also believes that we’re going to achieve that potential on our own, without him pushing us. That’s why he leads by example instead of just forcing the world into what he’d like it to be.
And then there’s Clark Kent. When Superman was “rebooted” in the 80’s the old “mild-mannered reporter” was tossed out, like the baby with the bathwater, by writers who never understood the importance of Superman’s disguise, and didn’t have the guts to try to write him. But they forgot that Clark Kent, that cowering nebbish, that long-suffering nice guy whom Lois once called a “perennial doormat” was an essential part of the mythos.
Granted it may have gotten tiresome seeing Clark fake his millionth stomach ache and run from danger, but while he wasn’t a fighter it’s not like Clark was weak in spirit. He had the same virtuous character, good instincts and basic decency as Superman, but without the flashy costume and super-strength to back it up, those fine qualities earned him the title, “wimp.” People took advantage of Clark not because he was weak, but because he was a nice guy and an easy target. Why didn’t Clark poke these creeps in the nose? Because that wouldn’t prove anything. Beating up your tormentor just validates his methods; in the big picture he still wins. Clark just turns the other cheek, and when those creeps are about to get run over by a train, he saves them like he would anyone else.
That’s Superman’s ethos; he saves our bacon when the power plant melts down, deflects the missiles when some nut hits the button, or stops a car before its drunken driver can kill a kid and his dog, but he doesn’t toss all missiles into space, shut down all power plants or evaporate all alcohol with heat vision. And he doesn’t let Clark Kent kick butt on the bullies. Why? Because he’s a patient guy, and he believes that ultimately good will win out, whether he hastens it on or not. Right makes might, and not the other way around.
Superman knows someday we’re going to be ready to adopt those beliefs that earn him derision as a “boy scout” and a naive fool, beliefs we already know deep down are true; that it’s our job to look out for our neighbors, that doing what’s right – even if it’s not “cool” – is what takes real courage. And that’s why he’ll always be more to us than another clown in cape and tights. He’s an icon.
That’s my story and I’m stickin’ with it.
- David Morefield
"Nightwing of Kandor"**
Of course Captialist/Pessimist Mentality will simply dismiss this as Naive. but I can see his point although he’s being blunt about it and undermining the “Realist” in most people’s sensibilities…
I Particularly love these lines…
Lois the hardened reporter has, like the rest of us, bought into the ethos of cynicism, which masquerades as sophistication but at its heart is a kind of deep-seated cowardice
and that doing what’s right – even if it’s not “cool” – is what takes real courage.
sounds preachy but it makes sense to me.
I actually enjoyed that, I am a person that believes in the basic principal of good in every person, and that if you do good, then good things will come to you. Even if week after week all I see is bad, I still believe, and the little things people do for you make it all worth it. I do agree that Clark Kent should be more of a focus, I always felt where Batman was Bruce Wayne’s true face, Clark Kent was Superman’s. Clark is who he is, and what he stands for, and Superman is a means for him to spread the word really.
I always liked how Superman: TAS portrayed Clark. He wasn’t the bumbling idiot in the days of old, but a reporter who did his job well and was still a nice guy at heart, it was the closest thing to the evolution of the Clark Kent persona that I’ve seen in a while. That cartoon and the Morrison JLA run really made me enjoy Superman, so much so that I was being torn between him and Batman as my #1 hero (Green Arrow always has his own special place, Quiver was boss.).
It’s why I anticipate the new Superman arc so much, I really believe that JMS can return Superman to the DC in a proper fashion, but can also make Clark Kent a relevant figure in the universe again.
Good piece. I would point out that Superman needs to be Clark in order to understand and be a part of humanity, just as he needs to be Superman to understand and be a part of his utopian native race. He needs to know what it’s like to be walked on, pushed around, and overlooked. He needs to know what it’s like to be shoved and to not shove back. If he didn’t have that, then he couldn’t have the other side of the coin. His endless compassion and need to bring people up are Kryptonian. He’s seen the heights that a race of intelligent beings can reach once they’ve overcome their oldest problems. But his respect for individuality and his humility are from his human upbringing. He was brought up by quiet farmers who’d been around long enough to see powerful people come and go. It’s what keeps him humble.
As for who he really is, he can’t be reduced to either/or. He’s not the mild-mannered reporter and he’s not the stoic champion of mankind. He certainly has both of those facets to his personality, but you have to factor in so much else to really understand him. Where he comes from, what he’s been through, the questions and struggles he’s faced, and the terrible responsibility of keeping all that power in check. Neither Clark nor Superman fully encapsulate it.
In that sense, he’s the most tragic superheroic character at all. Batman struggles to shape a better world with his own two hands. For Superman, that wouldn’t be a struggle at all, but he knows that he loses the battle if he does.
Sad as it is to say The Superman Fanbase falls under the Broken Base Trope
Set-up 1: Clark The Real Person and Supes as the disguise:
Most Pre-crisis fans (almost all) Hate this with a passion, based on their argument this makes Superman NO-DIFFERENT than any other joe in spandex, there is no identity dynamic which was an essential part of the mythos even pre-weisinger, The contrast of clark Kent and Superman personas where one of the richest storytelling tools that brought about his most creative era. You hit the nail in the head of what Clark can do and what superman can do, this isn’t like say a Peter Parker Spider-man Set-up where even though much more relatable has only ONE PERSONA in two get-ups, hence every dynamic brought about in his personal life is a singularity and of itself, with little no no exploration about any dynamic differences outside of what the costume does to his personal life Modern Clark Post-Byrne is almost like this in their eyes… On the Flip-side for modern Clark (which follows this argument) PREFERS to be human over Kryptonian and this is a powerful tool for modern idnetifiability set-ups, he prefers the Kents over the Els which is only logical. and would prefer being called “Clark” over Superman by any people he knows who knows his dual identities.
Set-up 2: Superman The Real Person, Clark Kent the disguise
Following the arguments of the Pre-crisis supes, this set-up fully realizes the difference of the Clark vs Superman Persona and plays to perfection a need for both, and plays on it’s inherent reality that no matter how Supes is with us… HE CAN NEVER BE totally one of us (Superman thereby the LONLIEST job in the world… moreso than Spidey) the alien who (in proper pre-crisis set-up and idealism) is denied the happiness of Marriage since he belongs to the world. and the only hobby he has is his fortress of solitude, but he doesn’t whine about it. although he’s doomed (in this set-up) to be mankind’s protector ad infinitum… Disadvantage i think is Superman in this set-up PREFERS to be Kryptonian over human and prefers the Els over the Kents a decision I personally am not a fan of but again that’s just me. and his friends in scenarios where his secret is revealed calls him “Superman” thereby fully rejecting the clark kent persona as a discardable tool, and thus naming him forevermore as an alias, that I DO NOT like.
Set-up 3: Kal-El is the REAL person, Supes and Clark are disguises.
A modification of Set-up 2 in which the only difference is that it Labels the Superman persona in the same Category as his clark one, and fully emphasizes his Kryptonian side. Played well in Elliot S! Maggin’s “Must there be a superman” story arc (one of the best I’ve read) and based on your post this is what seems more accurate, however, Personally even if Kal-El was the real persona, I’d still wish he’d rather have people he knows that knows his secret refer to him as Clark.
Again Superman Is a lonely lonely Job, this makes him IMO the originator of Angst (A Theme played out very much in spidey) and based on his CK persona the originator of Biggotry (A Theme played out in the Mutant Genre of Marvel).
You might even say his late1930’s/1940’s Incarnation is the originator of the Anti-Hero (hence Wolverine can thank him for that)
What are the recommended Superman stories/arcs/writing team from the 70s onward?
Most of my Supes reading involves the Rucka & Geoff Johns runs from a few years back. Oh and the godly All-Star Supes by Morrison <3
For a long time, there wasn’t much in the way of “teams” so much as “house artist+whomever’s writing this month.” Likewise, there wasn’t much in the way of “arcs” per se. Stories could span two or three issues, but DC took a while to get bitten by the continuity bug. Never mind that the 70s was kind of a tame period coming off from Superman’s hot streak in the 60s, and the 80s and 90s were plagued with all sorts of weird editorial decisions that Superman seemed to bear the brunt of.
That said, Curt Swan is the quintessential Superman artist, and much of the good stuff is going to feature his artwork. And there’s a couple of classic milestones to be had.
“The Man Who Murdered the Earth” - A Lex Luthor story. In this one, Luthor annihilates mankind in his zeal to kill Superman, then comes to regret it.
“Must There Be a Superman?” - This one suggests that superheroes flying around and solving everybody’s problems might not be the best thing for humanity. This story and the one above might seem elementary by today’s standards, but they’re important for two reasons: 1, they were arguably the first superhero stories to do these ideas. 2, they both came out in the 1970s, well before the '80s comics that are typically credited with bringing this sort of maturity and intelligence to the superhero genre.
Goody said it best
For the 70’s I think Elliot S! Maggin and Cary Bates ruled the titles… it was an era coming off of a revamped superman (The sandman ssaga by o neil and adams) but they were still treading water since Marvel was kicking them around to no end at the time.
IMO Curt Swan’s BEST INKER is indeed Murphy Anderson (hence SWANDERSON is a collective term for those two)
But i’d like to ass some more noteworthy stories…
The Sandman Saga: collected under “Kryptonite Nevermore” IMO the beginning of the Bronze age
Who took the super out of Superman: a 4 parter that deals with his struggle with the clark and supes persona
The Immortal Superman: IMO THE BEST bronze age story of the 70’s as supes travels into the far future and back to the past… a must read.
Superman in the societ union (somewhat inspired Red son) but iy’s more of a story of hope,… and I don’t know the real title sorry. stta.nu once had this as a free comic for view but they deleted it (probably a cease and desist order)
Excellent typo.
Thanks for the feedback guys I’ll look into getting the books that have the stuff u mentioned.
yeah my bad. lol
BTW @ Tizoc…
Most of these stories are collected in the “Superman in the Seventies” TP exceptions are “The Immortal Superman” which you can probably get in “Other” means
Sandman saga is collected indeed as “Kryptonite Nevermore” too bad it’s only in HC
Yeah I figured as much searching for it. I think my local library has the in the 70s book =3
Zack Snyder directing Superman: “It’s his time.” (Updated)
Get back Kevin Spacey as Lex Luthor…and it’s GOLDEN.
Snyder on Supes? That’s… interesting.
I appreciated Dawn of the Dead as horror, I appreciated 300 as comedy, and I never saw Watchmen. I choose cautious optimism.
300 was manly >=/
300 is the unofficial Mad Magazine parody of manliness.
Don’t really see what’s so comical about 300.
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300 defies being taken seriously.
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You need to discover your inner Carpet Lint.