I will just quote myself with bold in the right places to show why I’m confused.
Hop is now only done by f+hp instead of f/b+mp/hp and revamped. The refined input scheme means you can use standing mp while moving and that missed mp throws aren’t hops anymore. It now has 11 startup frames, 10 active frames, and 11 recovery frames (5 from landing). The old fierce hop had 15 startup frames, 10 active frames, and 18 recovery frames (strong version had 8 active frames and 17 recovery frames). It also goes higher and farther than it used to which opens up new tricks like hop to spd and using hop to go over downed opponents. It even combos at certain distances into pretty much whatever you want.
Here I mention exactly what you just said (how they affect matches).Even though most of the stuff is mentioned in Sirlin’s changelist, how exactly is it not telling you how it affects actual matches? The difference in frames data is also something the OP was looking for as mentioned in the first post (the details of how the move was changed).
Punch lariat’s initial hitbox now extends all the way to the ground. Now it can trade with low forwards and sweeps when timed correctly.** A few obscure combos are possible involving punch lariat that the lower hitbox makes possible (xup splash, cr. mk xx punch lariat on Bison).** New optional inputs of mp+mk and hp+hk added for pad players.
Is this part really mentioned in Sirlin’s changelist or common knowledge? Probably not.
New optional input of hcf/b +f/b added for spd. New motion is slower than the old motion but easier for new players who can’t spd without jumping. Old spd motion is also more lenient (hcf,uf+punch and db,d,df,f,uf+punch both register as spd’s)
I know it is common knowledge to people who play Zangief that spd’s can be done with a tilted 180 motion, but I doubt most people do. This is also another thing the OP mentions we should bring up.
Most of Zangief’s changes are pretty simple and direct, so the implications for them are also pretty obvious for the most part. I just briefly mentioned the new functions for each of the simple changes, which are pretty much how they affect the match anyways. Also the OP said the implications part is not the focus of this thread (he even contemplated deleting them to prevent possible thread derailments), so idk where you got the idea that the point of this thread is bringing up the implications of the new changes. He did mention wanting a complete changelist along with the not so common details for the few things that aren’t really mentioned on Sirlin’s changelist, and that is what I gave him (even though it means most of it could be read off Sirlin’s site verbatim).
I did forget to mention that strong and fierce green hand are unchanged, despite Sirlin’s changelist saying otherwise. I’ll just edit that into my post. If you feel that I missed out on anything or have something to add to my post, feel free to bring it up blitzfu. Even if it isn’t really all new, it is nice to have everything in one place.
The remix pic wasn’t taken on widescreen, but could be a at a different aspect ratio than the YBH one for other reasons. The blue hitboxes are definitely different. I’ll see about getting old/new images for an apples to apples comparison.
Hey Rufus, I’ve been meaning to ask you this for like a million years now…but if you ever have a ton of spare time, do you think you could get some screenshots of Chun hitting someone with her super? I’d like to see which hit is the one that misses. Something similar would be good against Guile/Sim/Sagat/Fei, showing which two hits miss when she only lands 4/6. Not really high priority or anything, it’s just something I’ve always been deathly curious about.
Oh snap, I guess I DID ask! So that’s the third and the sixth hit? Awesome…That also explains why the best way to land 5 hits on Guile/Sim/Sagat/Fei was to hit the super from the max possible range. Thank you!
I looked at R. Chun Li and N. Chun Li’s hitboxes for that move and they’re the same plus minus a pixel. Maybe a Dreamcast / Arcade difference or something.
for example, practically any air move will beat a CW now. Meaning either the red hitboxes were shrunk, the blue hitboxes enlarged or both. That doesn’t matter, what matters is that CW towards an opponent in the air is more risk than reward. Since you have a high probability of being stuffed, or trading.
If you want technical stuff, that doesn’t necessarily matter in a playing sense for the most part. What is needed is the results that come from the changes.
Thanks Rufus. I’m a little surprised that Dreamcast/Arcade versions of ST had hitbox changes. I never knew that, that probably explains some of the inexplicable differences between ST and HDR.
I don’t know what the differences between the two versions are – ‘or something’ is pretty likely – , but YBH is supposed to be based on the arcade version.
What happens if you use classic sprites, stretch the picture with the hitbox to the exact YBH size, and compare the HDR picture to the YBH picture? You can see the actual side borders of hitboxes in some YBH pictures and all they had to do was determine which hitboxes belonged where to draw the lines so it’s unlikely YBH is at fault (besides the couple of problems noted in the errata).
If you look at the images in blitzfu’s post, you can see that the shape of the blue hitboxes is different in a way that can’t be explained by scaling since the YBH image has no indication of the hitbox going down her arm.
Just wanted to say this is a really interesting thread Skankin’, I’m surprised how many places I seem to come across you on the internet.
As someone who read Sirlin’s HDR articles multiple times as I find the design process really interesting, my mind boggles at the possibility that there were changes he didn’t blog about/know about.
Sounds pretty harsh to be an ST Chun player in HDR, I imagine you would have just been happy with the removal of the backflip kick, easier lightning legs and Super damage nerf (no altered properties) since everyone with a crazy super got that nerf.
I thought his reasons for radically changing Chun Li’s Spinning Bird Kick trajectory were pretty… non existent? Normally he’s say why a previous move sucked, or how it needed improvement, but the SBK was just “aaaaaaaaaaaaand now it arcs. More on this later.”
Later: “I decided it should arc MORE!”
It did seem weird that Chun players complained so much about some of the changes in testing that he reverted them, but the SBK is NEVER mentioned in this capacity.
The article did make it plain that his ultimate chun li and actual chun li players’ ultimate chun li were two completely different characters.
This just shows a pretty shocking lack of basic reading comprehension.
And yet, saying that isn’t quite right either. I can say (and it would be true) that I’ve lost to CW several times with different characters. Chun-Li still has no new counters to CW at all, in fact.
What’s ACTUALLY useful is to tell them how it was changed, because saying “CW loses to pretty much everything” is pretty subjective.
Now, if you were to tell them “the first red hitbox of Chicken Wing was pushed back slightly”, that makes more sense. So basically, only the beginning of the move has worse priority. And, if we wanna get speculative, it might even be better against people trying to cross Fei up, as the hitbox is just farther back now.
THAT, is a detailed description of a change, and THAT is more useful than saying “CW worse priority, it loses to everything now.”
EDIT: I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who’s taking this thread seriously.
Ah, is there a good move where its active hitbox goes under Chun Li’s upper body hitbox but not below the arm just before landing? That way, I can test to see if that corner near her arm is actually hittable in arcade ST and if you have time, feel free to do so in both modes of HDR.
Also, can you confirm that the hitbox always has that corner every frame of the way? It’s hard to tell with the shadows on the images you took (and lots of thanks for that) but I assume that means the hitboxes are only displaced and not modified.
Actually there are several errors on the YBH. I can name at least 10. There is even a link to the NIH japanese site that illurstrates some of the errors. Of the top of my head:
Sim hit box errors on his jumping jabs.
Error on what moves can can/not be canceled with Cammy.
Hit box erroros on Gief and his splash.
Hit box erros on Hawk and his splash.
Color variations on guile.
Errors on the TAP foro Rog and the amount of meter he gets.
There are a couple more. I’ll look into it.
Without sounding like a dork… which I am… The YBH was by bathroom buddy for 2 years. I have that thing almomst memoriezed. LOL…