:tup: :tup: :tup: V E G A :tup: :tup: :tup:
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:tdown:
You only need 3 active frames to cover quick and backrise:
12(3)45
If your first active hits the 3 you are covered against 3 frame attacks if your move was a medium or heavy cause of button priority against jabs. Your second active is active on the 4th frame and your 3rd active meaties the backrise on the 5th frame.
4 active frames just makes it easier to do, etc etc.
That is unless the backrise is only touchable on the 6th frame which would make it a 6 frame difference not a 5 frame difference.
well it is a knockdown, not a combo. you don’t have further guaranteed damage and anyway you are in positional and frame advantage
the alternative is worse; imagine only one kind of quick rise exists. after a knockdown, the attacking side always has an advantage and can keep the pressure, unless the defender has meter to burn (and that depends on the character. not everyone has an EX invincible reversal)
the only guess is whether the attacker will do nothing (tricking the defender into attacking an exposing herself) or if he will use an attack or a grab (where the defender has to guess between blocking or jumping/backdashing). there is a sub-guess if the attacker uses an overhead, but most of those will be blocked on wakeup due to the defender being extra attentive and noticing she has to block high
so instead, Capcom gives the defender two wakeup options, but neither is super good. The attacker can, most of the time, assume the defender will use the same quick rise she did the last time, forcing the defender to be less predictable. The attacker can still make good choices, but he is also vulnerable to being predictable
this way, the game forces both sides to be unpredictable. wake up jab is not always followeable with a lot of damage unless meter is spent (in which case you probably wanted to keep your pressure less risky anyway) so the attacker keeps an advantage here. he can plan his meaty to be comboeable, but he is risking getting hit out of it if the defender moves the way he didn’t expect. it is also not impossible to cover both options with a good setup, but this requires execution
timing your meaty is still difficult, particularly online. setups exist but they double down on being predictable. you are further announcing your intentions
I don’t think it is a perfect solution but imho it is not bad in any case, and clearly preferable to the SF4 vortexes. I think it is better than the alpha 2 rolls and the single wakeup from SF3, where the frame difference was bigger, but also different for everyone which is crazy times
imho the objective was to have a somewhat complex mixup but give an advantage to the attacker. removing the meterless reversals gives everyone the same chances, but EX meter is gained so quickly that you have to keep paying attention all the time to whether the opponent has enough meter for her reversal
haven’t seen anything to indicate that the defender has an advantage on knock down. the attacker has the advantage but it is not for free. a KD is not guaranteed damage, the attacker has to earn it by guessing right
Edit: Ah I see. You aim for it non-meaty so it carries active into the backroll. I got ya.
the backrise is only touchable on the 6th frame. it’s still a 5 frame difference. you’re not including the 1st frame in your count
I don’t get the relationship between input delay and advantage after throws…
Safe jump won’t replace a vortex as a reward for being able to get in.
Why wouldn’t you include the first frame when that’s the first startup frame of a reversal?
But ok, that makes sense, now.
what?
edit: wait a minute I understand why I’m confused now
when I say “remove QR” all I’m saying is that I don’t want there to be 2 timings to deal with. they could just as easily remove BR instead and I’d be happy.
I was suggesting command grabs be buffed not because they would no longer leave you in range (which I hadn’t considered, even though it’s a good point), but because they lose the comparative advantage of rewarding you with a reliable meaty, in a game where everybody gets reliable meaties anyways
so I was asking for command grab oki to get better than it is now, not worse
yeah exactly.
here is why dime is wrong and 3fs don’t work though against 3f jabbers.
Backrise is generally the good rise. In most situations you have to go to negative frames to throw a backrise. So punishing backrise would be a risk.
Meaties mean next to nothing if there is not a throw threat. “Oh you made me block from half a screen away… good for you. Thanks for the free neutral”
Both are good but backrise is beyond good.
Removing backroll would kinda undo the changes to throws and to many other KDs they did in S2. I hardly see them doing that without designing a pretty different game, which might end up being pretty close to SF4.
If they remove BR then we’re back to the safe left right aerial sf4 oki. QR is the one to remove
fair enough. remove QR for everything that isn’t a command grab then (but command grabs would still force it… I believe this is what you were arguing for earlier, I just misunderstood you).
alternatively, remove QR from everything but buff command grab knockdown advantage so that there’s enough time to dash twice and go for a strike/throw mixup afterwards. I think dashing twice should be enough for anybody to get in range of their opponent after a back rise although I’m not positive.
yeah, I was not thinking so much about how big the distinction is between removing BR and removing QR. my mistake.
What if they slow down back rise, make it move you further away, but it becomes throwable?
Fuck it
All hard knockdowns
as in… throw timing for QR/BR is the same, but the meaty timing remains different?
I actually don’t mind that. it doesn’t go as far as I’d like, but it’s certainly more likely than Capcom just removing QR.
I can’t be the only person who thinks removing QR or BR would be a bad idea. You would get SFIV vortex back for no reason, and let’s be honest, there are games like BB who get away with 3 wakeups + no tech without being a complete failure.
With that said, there should be a few adjustments. It doesn’t help that most active moves have like, 3 active frames total. Quick Rise should move the defender further back but with more recovery, so while neutral is kinda reset, getting too close to the corner should be an issue.
Lol, capcom won’t be removing either qr or br. It goes against the games entire philosophy of commitment.
The thing is, it’s actually working as planned. Oki is terrible outside the corner and you can’t get good pressure against an opponent that mixes up between quick and backrise well unless you can react.
That’s exactly what people wanted and asked for when they said nerf vortexes. So y’all got what you asked for.
It’s just the way the dumb game is. If they take either quick or backrise out the game will become much more setplay based at all levels besides beginner, or knockdowns that allow throw pressure against said rise will be all that is used.
If no throw pressure is available against the backrise then that mean the backrise will just be a neutral reset everytime and getting rid of quickrise will have done virtually nothing save for keep folks from getting jabbed on wakeup.
Instead of jab being the demon foe, wakeup block>neutral will be.
I think the easiest solution would be to assign QR to throws and backroll to all the other knockdowns. Regular throws have already been nerfed for most characters anyway so it won’t change much.
Indeed it is already “naturally” the case since everyone will just backroll out of most non-throw KDs to increase the distance between him and his opponent. You only quickrise/normal rise if you see they are on autopilot and you want to fuck them up a little.
My only fear is that given the very limited wake-up options in SF5 compared to other fighting games out there everyone will just end up relying on v-reversal, which might be detrimental to characters who really need their VT.
yeah I’ve touched on this before. I wish that VT didn’t share the same meter as VR. would be tricky to split the two while maintaining balance though.
That would still be a win in my book.
And it would make corner pressure a lot stronger. Which compensates for the fact that BR is a get out of jail free card (since it still pushes you to the corner)