So i read the first page and thought of kinda of a cool idea for grapplers.
Why not make it so whenever a grapple character techs a throw, their character actually grabs the other guy and does some (balanced and fair) damage?? Grapplers (in real MMA) are also the best anti-grapplers, so it makes sense to me.
Or maybe something like grappler FAs being faster or something, since absorbing one attack on reaction and being able to capitalize on it with FA would benefit them alot more than say, dhalsim.
Obviously anyone who plays a grappler consistently should critique me, because although i thought it sounded cool, it may not be practical, idk how many times another high level player would actually try to grab a grappler in fear of SPD or TT, or how overpowered(or useless) a different FA system for a subset of characters might be. Just trying to throw some unique ideas in the mix.
Cool idea but teching is way too easy in SF4 to implement that, although I suppose the counter would be don’t throw grapplers, but that just means that grapplers are harder to mix up.
Yeah, Hakan only needs to get a viable oil up set up, and that would improve him a lot. Oiling shouldn’t mean to always get punished. That, and fixing oil dive is all I’d change.
The OP, demanded comboable grabs. IMHO this is a terrible idea, and would require a toning down of the grabs. Zangief and T.Hawk have good combo options as is. If you can combo the SPD, it just becomes another way to finish a combo. A SPD should be a high risk high reward punishment, not a damage scaled combo finisher. Yeah, Clark is cool in KoF, but there’s a lot less to differentiate him from other characters, given how the main way to grab is comboing, or using the running grab (which is not too good without good prediction, and that Zangief has anyway).
edit: Tick grabs are much more interesting than combos, and create a better meta game. It’s not bad in SSF4, compared to, say, 3:3S, but it could stand some improvement, to get it to the Alpha 2 heights.
It has always been this way. I don’t see how a combo’d SPD fixes this.
Combos won’t fix anything; you can’t combo what you can’t catch either.
This is true, but it’s part of a bigger problem: SSF4 is a heavily defensive game. Not being able to parry an AA move, or to CC through it really took out two big options previous games had against turtling, and the focus attack doesn’t really help here. But Gief and THawk have good tools against fireballs anyway.
I have played grapplers since my very first fighting game (SF2). I’ll say that although the gameplan has changed, i feel Zangief and grapplers in general are strong enough to win, and Vance pretty much showed everyone that. Do I think grapplers in general are at a disadvantage? Probably. We’ll see when the arcade SSF4 hits japan and we really learn what each character is capable of.
Ugh, I hate how Vance “proves” Gief is still a great character. That dude is GDLK if not a God period and me thinks he could do well with about a dozen other characters if he really wanted to.
As far as combo-able throws go I feel like it wouldn’t be a big deal if the throws worked much like the last part of Abel’s Change of Direction. i.e. They were blockable. Sure they wouldn’t be “real” throws but the characters might feel more grapple-y and it really wouldn’t change how you played any of the grapplers. The throws would be more or less useless outside of the combos but would make great combo finishers. (Think if Alex in 3rd Strike could combo into his headbutt. Which he sort of can off of a :hp: or :mp: Flash Chop. ) Instead of Zangief ending his combos in Banish Fist he would end it in some sort of spinning DDT or whatever. Doesn’t really matter what it looks like.
The way I see it SF4 really changed what it meant to be a grappler. Abel’s Step Kick mix-up game is preposterous. I love it. He’s really a mix-up character who happens to grab you. Fuerte also, isn’t really a “grappler” in the traditional Zangief sense of the word. Honestly I think this how most grapplers should be. The grapple aspect should really be just the special effect and not denote the play style persay. I love the way Zangief spends most of the match blocking and then suddenly he takes his opening and “ZOMGWTFBBQQSOMUCHDAMAGE” That’s the Red Cyclone. I can’t weigh in on T. Hawk and Hakan but, I don’t feel its really necessary for other characters to be that way.
The tournament viability of Zangief is really unrelated to how much he was nerfed or whether or not he is good in this game. (Which he is BTW) His problems in tournaments is that he has a difficult time with the top tier characters who also happen to be the most popular characters. Thats just the breaks. It has more to do with the basic design of his character as opposed to theirs. The current IPW tier list lists him as having bad matchups with Guile , Akuma , Chun , Honda , Ryu , Dhalsim , Seth , Sagat and, Juri. Thats only eight bad matchups (Most of which only 6-4 which IMO is can easily become 5-5 if you play smart.) All but one of those characters has a fireball. Three out of the eight generally revolved their game around zoning with footsies and FBs and playing keep out. Guile, Akuma, and Chun are all at least A tier with Guile and Chun potentially being S. I think Gief is in a really good place and can win tournaments. I don’t think there are nearly enough high level SSF4 Zangief players to rule him out. Gief just needs more smart players who know their matchups inside and out.
Props to your post, well said but no Effing way is Sagat/Seth ONLY 6-4 over Gief. And I’d also like to add that a Rufus with U2 brings that matchup closer to 5-5. I stand by my statement that Gief can be in the top 10 at every major tourney, just not the top 1.
I have never seen a Gief vs. Seth match, ever. I will be looking one up ASAP to get more info. So any information you have that would explain why its so much in Seth’s favour would be greatly appreciated.
Its true that Sagat’s ability to fireball zone Gief is a bit better than say Ryu’s but he doesn’t have the damage like he did in Vanilla, and his DP isn’t as good as Ryu’s. His footies are much slower than Ryu’s as well. Any Gief worth his salt is going to get inside eventually. And only take a small amount of damage doing so. Once he’s in he’ll likely score a knockdown. Sagat can be Safe-Jumped, he walks really slow and isn’t going to be able to run once Gief is inside. The worst he can do to Gief at that point is throw him or blockstring into a tiger shot to get space.
Ok so after watching a few matches of Seth vs Gief I’d have to agree with Trini_Judoka that Seth v. Gief is worse than 6-4. At least 7-3 but, I still can’t find too many instances of this matchup.
Dude because you acting like you don’t know, let me edge-ja-macate you.
-Sagat AND Gief were BOTH health nerfed yielding NET ZERO in the health gap for Gief
-Once you get inside, yes Gief can do damage yeah, but getting inside and staying inside is rather difficult considering:
a. fast as shit FB
b. A TK that if connects will knock you back to the other side of the screen forcing you to work your way in again
c. Kara TU/TK!!! Extending his powerful specials more than half screen Keeps Gief on the floor taking FBs to the grill
d. Safe jumping Sagat is near impossible if he selects U2. For that matter, I’ve never seen anyone safe jump his Kara cancels either, but maybe that’s possible 3/4ths screen away. lol
e. Gief’s nerfed jump makes him even easier to AA and Sagat is the best at half screen AA’s
f. Did you forget Gat has a 5 frame invincible reversal TU? So Gief’s strings and ticks better be on point or its eat FADC > Ultra
I aint salty, but Sagat is the number one reason why Gief never won a major.
It’s obvious Seth still wins this match. He has a lot of tools to bait lariats and force Gief to sit and block on wake up which allows him to play more aggressively than other offensive type characters vs. him. On top of that still being able to generally lame him out any way.
In my opinion a Zangief should loose just about every time to a talented Seth or Sagat. The only way you can win is by capitalizing on their mistakes and that’s hardly a bankable strategy.
and it really wouldn’t change how you played any of the grapplers. The throws would be more or less useless outside of the combos but would make great combo finishers. (Think if Alex in 3rd Strike could combo into his headbutt. Which he sort of can off of a :hp: or :mp: Flash Chop. ) Instead of Zangief ending his combos in Banish Fist he would end it in some sort of spinning DDT or whatever. Doesn’t really matter what it looks like.