If I played bipson I know I would (not accounting for probable nerfs to the move itself to make up for the change). I understand why people are sensitive about the matter though.
Bison has been a hybrid many times before and I can adapt (btw others observed that the move was nerfed in the new build). But I have a deep concern about the state of charge characters, and their marginalization in this game. This is why I am being protective from and even abrasive to these changes. This simplification of special inputs needs limits. Give them an inch and they’ll take a mile as the saying goes.
Bison has demonstrated with terrifying effect his offensive and defensive game in SF5, a change like this was uncalled for. The only logical reason for this is they want to give him less charge moves. This is why I don’t want to wrap my head around this crap. No one is hurt by having a handful of charge characters (or just one). It is no different than having a number of difficult to use characters, the roster should appeal and cater to a wide variety of skill levels and play styles should it not?
I guess it is easier to lower the skill threshold of play than to generate appealing, creative, and a generous amount of single player content to attract casuals. Capcom will NEVER achieve MKX level of sales no matter how simplified they make the gameplay.
LOL, what’s with people typing bipson instead of Bison? Is it a kind of joke or just a typo?
AFAIK, wasn’t Blanka really good in vanilla because his rolling attack couldn’t be punished on block and was safe? I thought especially true of shotos, since they couldn’t fireball? If I’m wrong on this, please correct me.
@Daemos maybe they have a different idea for how they want the attack to work, rather than the Bison player having to sit on a charge to use it? Maybe it was never intended to be used as a defensive AA. Maybe they want it to be more like Banish from CvS2. It’s not a huge conspiracy you know.
Also, please explain how motion moves require lower skill. You’ve never adequately explained how this is the case, or how motion inputs dumb a character down. I can point to KoF that has a lot of crazy inputs and tight timing executions that makes my head spin compared to the rather easy charge style I was able to pick up and play moderately within a couple of days when I transitioned to a stick. Even super canceling out of a special using a charge character is light years easier than all the stuff I have to remember for KoF style game play.
The KoF13 Trials still gives me nightmares on how hard they are and I’ve completed the Vega and Bison trials fairly easily.
Ive never bought a game based on how many sales it made. If they sell a whole lot, great for corporate. Does that matter to me even if I was a casual gamer? Nope. Still gonna buy what I wanna buy. If the game I like stays stable enough to be relevant and possibly get a sequel, good enough.
MKX has the same tap inputs and chain strings for every character any ways. SFV still has more input variety than that game regardless. Not that that should be a basis for how competitive or noob friendly a game is, but SFV has the favor weighted there.
Go to 1:51, in particular look at the man’s hand movements like in 1:59 through out the match…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tLMNkkqeoU
The man in the video would not have executed one single special move and not have won one single round in that match if Psycho Inferno was a charge move. Note how he never was able to perform ANY other special move. THAT is a perfect example of dumbing down, make the game mash friendly for the lowest level player. If you can’t see that for what it really is, then please agree to disagree.
Furthermore, I told you that I do not wish to interact with you because of your puerile approach to discussion, and even though I ignored you using the forum’s Ignore utility function, you continue to react to my all posts and mentioning me (prompting notifications). I obviously can’t and won’t report you for this, so I’m asking you politely to use the ignore function on me. Thanks.
Charge characters only require “more skill” at the lowest level of play. Which is irrelevant when you’re talking about actual competitive play. Just like how there are characters in VF or DOA that are more “button masher friendly” but that becomes irrelevant in competitive play.
@Daemos That video is certainly not reflective of motions not requiring skill. People can churn butter and get SPD, does that mean SPD is easy? Fuck no. It’s using the move and the dexterity of your hands at the right times and not mashing shit out. HHS is a mash move in ST, does that mean it’s easy? Try clutch fierce HHS, good luck. All charge means is that you can’t mash it by wiggling the joystick, but there is literally no dexterity requirements for going from down back to down forward. Literally none! Square gate does all the work for you.
By your logic, normal attacks take no skill to properly use because you could see that girl won by mashing s.HK with Ryu. OMG!! So scrub and noob friendly and no skill required!! Most people who are serious about fighters know that using normal attacks effectively take skill, just like anything else in the game! At high levels, you obviously can’t do that!
It’s a forum, where discussion happens and often in such cases, not echo chambers or hug boxes. Don’t like it? Then don’t join in a discussion in a public space. You’re a blubbering pussy if you can’t handle open discussion with people who don’t share the same views as you.
I’m with you there. I think charge vs motion is down to personal preference really. It also depends on how the character works (for example, Viper is a motion character, and I’d hardly say playing her well is easy…)
This isn’t about your purchases, but Capcom’s campaign for ‘accessibility’ and ‘user friendliness’ is ultimately motivated by money and pushing sales numbers up. Speaking purely in terms of money, MKX did not ship as much because of simplified inputs, sure those help because it is easier to play the game. MKX’s success is related to everything else about it that is far more potent at reeling in casuals than 2 button specials and input shortcuts. However that requires more effort than Capcom have shown they are willing to invest in that aspect of a game.
This is true. At the highest skill level, it makes almost no difference.
The issue then becomes, should we lower the execution ceiling for ALL characters equally at the expense of input variation (by extension play style variation)? Should all characters have it in them to be ‘button masher friendly’? Or should Capcom be content with only a handful of characters that are easier to get into (i.e. button masher friendly) and spare the rest of the roster?
No, you’re missing the point. This isn’t about people who do not share my views, I’ve been handling those fine for 13 years here and never had to ignore anyone before. You’re just a fucking condescending asshole that’s all.
Blanka has been mid-low to low tier in every SF4 iteration.
ball punish list from “the balls were super safe on block times” OW MY BALLS! Everything Blanka ball related
Or maybe they just want to re-tool the move itself. The game is still under development, there’s a lot of changes that can take place between now and the release date. Keep in mind that all of the characters aren’t even released yet; we honestly don’t know how many charge characters will be in. I think it’s far too early to panic and make claims that Capcom is trying to phase charge characters out of existence.
There were people that argued that KI needed to retain its f,b,b,qcf motions for specials and such when in the end it wasn’t really necessarily.
I think the better question to ask is “is there really an issue?”
Again, to bring up MKX since this game seems to be being brought up…the game has more simplified motions than SFV and SFV still retains charge for 2 of its 10 character roster. That’s still 2 more characters that rely on charge for a bit or a lot of their gameplay compared to MKX where none do. The closest MKX has to links is post chain juggles and these chains outside of hit confirming require about zero execution to complete. The main thing that keeps the game difficult is executions that are created outside of the basic simplifications of the inputs (just like how Viper has 3 simple special moves but is very execution based). Like SFIV, the game is very OS heavy as well.
SFV will work the same way. It will be “simplified” made to be more simple just like SFIV, yet people will find ways to create execution requirements with these simple inputs that will force a higher execution barrier. This is on top of hit confiming and other things that require a general sense of awareness on top of the pure tap/motion based executions.
Regardless when the game hits release in March, the majority of people will be playing Ryu or Ken even though there are a shit ton of other characters that also have simple inputs. From playing KI and talking in the KI forums a lot, it seemed that people associated how many moves a character had most often with difficulty. A character could have simple or more contrived inputs, but if they only had 3 special moves that weren’t as “complicated” as a character that had 5 to 8 special moves and a character specific resource or meter.
There are people that have a heavy attachment to holding back and down on the stick, but they are far outweighed by the people who don’t. Capcom knows this and NRS knows this as there has never been a charge character in MKX ever and the basic move motions in MKX are completely more simplified than even SFV’s.
You’re absolutely right, everything can change and this could just be an experiment in this build of the game. We’ve seen this happen in SF4 and it could be happening now.
Nobody is really making claims that Capcom are going to absolutely phase out charge inputs, but there is a clear trend that can be observed and rational implications that can be inferred. The fact is that Capcom’s design philosophy for SF5 has phased out many charge specials and even whole characters. Based on what we know so far, there is reason to be alarmed if you play charge characters. It would be dishonest of you to say otherwise.
If your favorite characters are charge characters there is.
If you enjoy playing charge characters because of the play style there is.
If you want to play something different than motion characters there is.
Charge characters are not broken, don’t fix them.
That’s why I was trying to understand why you were praising a series that pioneered easy inputs for special moves. MK has consistently had the least difficult and most homogeneous inputs for specials of any fighting game and they only simplified them further in newer games. MKX is also regularly talked about competitively as a game where the majority of the characters fight similarly or are generally trying to do the same things to open each other up and win the match.
They are not broken, but you could say that about most of the changes to SF since SF2. Characters don’t need dashes when they already have good walk speed. Why fix Bison’s great walk speed for situational anime dashes and teleport devil reverses? He wasn’t broken before why does he need to be flying around and doing cute blazblue shit? This is SF.
Cammy was just fine when her spin knuckle was hcb+P, why change it to a 2 button V Skill? That’s too easy mode. Bison being able to press 2 buttons to negate projectiles? Wasn’t he fine struggling vs Guile?
I wasn’t praising MK’s gameplay, it’s terrible to me and the exact thing I want SF to be nothing like. I was praising the effort they put in other aspects of their game to bring in sales. I was suggesting that maybe if Capcom focused on other stuff (like MK) to reel in casuals, they wouldn’t feel the need to continually simplify their inputs with each iteration to get and keep casuals.
Can you imagine how simplified SF6 or SF7’s execution will be if their plan succeeds (it will btw)? Capcom would not have simplified SF5’s execution further if they didn’t get positive feedback from SF4.
I am actually in favor of some degree of simplification. Things that don’t need to be unnecessarily complex shouldn’t be. If we can use a QCF instead of a HCF then do it. A HCF instead of a 360, do it. What makes me uncomfortable about this logic is that we will inevitably have an an entire cast of QCF, QCB, DP and a few HCB/HCF, and half a dozen charge moves - because charge inputs are mistakenly grouped under ‘unnecessarily complex’ IMO.
Charge inputs govern your play style, force you to become preemptive, anticipative, more than reactive, and force certain conditions on a player that no other command input really does - with a pay off usually. Phasing them out isn’t the same as phasing out 360 or HCF commands, because you are phasing out a full fledged play style that is more primordial than the traditional character archetypes of shoto, grappler, etc. This to me is disheartening. I love playing Decapre for example, but never had any interest in playing Cammy - mainly because Decapre is evil but also because she is a charge character and I enjoy those conditions. There are people who choose their characters based on their play style, as in they like charge characters or dislike motion characters. I see no justifiable reason to take away that variety from the playerbase*.
*Which I am not saying that Capcom is doing, only saying that this appears to be the trend. We still have many more reveals and changes coming up.
Charge akuma! 360 motions for Urien! DP motions for Alex! Mash taps for Zangief! Half-circle motions for Dhalsim normals!
(am I doing this right?)
why should charge characters be punished for doing their moves, when shotos spam fireballs and can anti air you when you try to get in.
Also even when you get in vs most top tiers, you still can lose half your life or more to 1 combo like yun, akuma or evil ryu. Why don’t charge characters ever get like 50 percent damage combos?
Charge characters are not punished for being charge, who the fuck thinks this way? The risk to reward ratio of charge specials are simply different and their gameplay is balanced around different principles and conditions.
Many charge characters can deal massive damage. Bison alone has had 50%+ damage combos in SFV, and historically has had 100% damage combos.
I was mostly talking about the sf4 series, shotos also hardly ever get punished for spamming fireballs on high level play
And saying charge characters moves should be punished just cause there different doesn’t really answer anything
This seems as good a time as any to bring up the point that you don’t need charge inputs to have the charge playstyle. Is there a better way to do the charge playstyle than charge inputs? I don’t think this is a question that has been explored very deeply.
You could say that some games have already touched this somewhat with things like held buttons, or Juri/Omega Juri.
But for fun and the sake of experiment, let’s imagine we wanted to have the Sonic Boom in a game with one-button specials. What’s the simplest you could go without sacrificing essential elements of Guile’s playstyle?
The #1 concern is that there has to be something in place to prevent Guile from spamming booms. You can do that in a number of ways.
It should also not be possible to do Flash Kick immediately after a boom, so we can’t just stick a cooldown on Sonic Boom like it was Rising Thunder.
Although, on that topic, if there were a universal cooldown on Guile’s special moves, then you’ve already accomplished this goal.
The remaining question is whether it’s essential that Guile can’t flash kick while moving, or sonic boom while walking forward. Do you need to add another limitation on top of these? Or is it a good idea to do so, considering the side effects (problems with overheads/crossups for example)?
Keep in mind that this last rule has already been broken by charge characters before, although it required arcane system mechanics to do so (charge storage/partitioning), so I’m not sure it’s a necessary element here.