my theory on Capcom thinking process, quote tags so we can pretend we are reading their thoughts:
if fireballs end up generally mediocre, classic space control tools aren’t that good and charge moves are removed, I think there’s a decent chance they are thinking something like this.
Charge characters aren’t hard to use at all. Especially on stick.
Of the first 6 characters revealed, 5 had easy ways of blowing up fireballs. There aren’t any “Ifs” anywhere, this is as close to a damn near certainty as we could possibly get.
From the front page article, the Vega thread, the Vega thread at capcom unity, the Vega charge petition thread at capcom unity and this thread I’ve seen various posts that brought up some issues. I’d like to address them in a less inflammatory way than I have before.
Change/Nostalgia
Please let me know if I’m misinterpreting you but this part seems to imply that this doesn’t matter; like it should be dismissed. When used in the context of “nostalgia glasses” or “nostalgia goggles”, that word is often given negative connotations. Up until two days ago, Vega being a charge character and people liking it had nothing to do with them being people who can’t accept change. Vega being charge was normal and acceptable. To me it seems that many people are indoctrinated with the idea that change is good by default. Vega was changed and we should like it because it’s a change. “Are you afraid of change?” That is one of those things people say to shut you up or make you look bad without actually saying something substantial. It does nothing for the argument/debate.
Charge Moves Are Better/You’d Have To Nerf X/Charge Is A Disadvantage
I see charge moves similar to EXs or attacks with cooldown. It’s a way to make it so that it’s OK to make this move better in this or that way than moves with other types of input. You need meter to do this move that combos into itself. You need to charge for this fireball that recovers quickly and you can walk behind. Some people see this as a punishment for having good moves(so if the charge input is removed then it is a buff). I instead see it as a favorable trade. Having to charge is an acceptable price to pay for this great move. After Super Turbo, charge moves started getting worse so having to charge felt less and less like a good deal. I feel that the people behind these later games just didn’t have the same way of thinking about charge moves.
Charge Moves Are Easier/Harder
I always felt charge moves(aside from Double Somersault motion) were easier than circular motion moves, which is why I felt it wasn’t a punishment. They are easier to execute and not hard to implement into competition. I’ve seen too many people saying charge is hard to ignore though. So I’ll say that it varies by person. It has been said that removing Vega’s charge was to make him more accessible. I’ve been assuming that Capcom themselves said that but it’s possible they stated nothing of the sort. At this point I don’t think it helps either side of the argument.
Vega Never Should Have Been Charge/Moving Forward/Offensive Play
Was anyone before 2-3 days ago lobbying for Vega to no longer be charge? Did people only just come to the conclusion that Vega shouldn’t have been charge after he stopped being charge? Vega had no trouble moving forward when his slide did more than just knock people down. Back when it had short start up, more range and could more easily be spaced to make safe it was a tool for advancing. Charge characters managed to be offensive for a long time. If Vega players were having trouble playing offensively I bet they would have asked for better moves instead of changing how he is played on a fundamental level.
Encroachment
Decapre was the only completely new charge character added to SF4 and she almost didn’t make it. I am expecting zero completely new charge characters in SFV. I wasn’t expecting Vega in SFV. He made it but he isn’t charge(tentatively). I want to know why it isn’t enough for over 80% of the roster to be non-charge? Why do they have to look back at old charge characters and change them instead of just adding non-charge characters? Forget that, why a SF2 charge character? Touching a SF2 character has to be where I put my foot down. Make Urien a non-charge character for all I care(and I want him in the game).
It Isn’t Final
To others that means “stop whining/complaining”. To me that means “complain harder”. I have to compete against people who are having fun at Gamescom finally being able to do Vega’s moves. Beyond that, just the mere fact that Capcom is even considering changing Vega says to me that they really want to do it and are looking for every possible way to make it balanced. So me just sitting back and hoping non-charge Vega is broken isn’t really doing anything. All we can really do is be loud and mad.
Actually, quit some time ago prior to Ultra buff requests I was talking about how good ST in SF4 would be if Vega didn’t have to charge it. My argument was that clearly Capcom does not want him to be strong on wake up and the move was clearly intended to be used as an AA. I proposed changing it to a DP motion to make it more versatile and most importantly, useful.
Vega in SF4 really needs to be moving. If he’s sitting in SF4 he’s a sitting duck, literally. ST could be a great AA, and is, but you have to hit really early and under the opponent. This is why charging is a detriment to him in that game, because as he’s on his feet, he isn’t charging. Someone jumps, and he doesn’t have a good answer for it. If he’s walking forward, and they jump, he would need to go down back to store charge for his AA, ST. The problem is, by the time he has it, the opponent is in prime range to stuff it completely during start up. What makes ST powerful is how it hits below, not how it hits in front. It also puts Vega at an advantage because it pops them up and he gets time to land and space a set up. If the move was a DP motion, he could remain mobile and on his feet, if the player sees the opponent jump, input the motion quickly and pop them early from below. This would have been an enormous buff to the character. The people who were clamoring for invincible frames on ST didn’t take this into consideration when I was talking about it because they weren’t thinking about keeping the opponent out, but rather getting the opponent off. ST doesn’t need iframes if it works at keeping them out, since they can’t get in. This would fall in line with Capcom’s thinking that Vega needs to be weak on wake up because he’s strong at a distance, and during knock down you made the mistake of letting your opponent in. Mobile non-charge ST would have fell in line with that design theory and still kept Vega weak on the wake up, yet he’d be a ranged monster because no more free jumps.
It would also mean you could react armor break FA, another huge weakness Vega has in SF4.
People didn’t want to hear it though 
Another nice thing would have been QCF RCF, especially with EX.RCF. Being able to walk forward and react EX.RCF under a fireball would have made the move so useful. As it is, you need to remain static or moving backwards, losing space, to actually use this particular aspect of the move. Why put the utility there if there isn’t a lot of use to the utility at higher level play?
Hopefully this is insightful from an apparently rogue Vega player’s perspective.
@“Rioting Soul” Not shutting anyone up by saying nostalgia. It’s just an option over the other option which is providing legitimate reasons why charge fits Vega’s special moves and if he has anything like Bison’s Scissor Kick which benefits or generally can’t be utilized the way it was intended without being a charge move. Considering Capcom even attempted to do this, I say that Capcom has figured he has no special moves that legitimately fit better as a charge motion for his gameplay. Gameplay options seem to be opened up for him being a motion character and gives him more freedom to be aggressive while still playing the range game and being very mobile.
I haven’t seen anyone come up with anything that really convinces me that gameplay wise he has more options opened up to him as a charge character. No one has really stated any one special move of his that generally benefits from being a charge move which is a good sign that this IS really a good time to take him off the charge shackles.
From what I’ve seen in other games, your argument of charge being easier will be tough to fight. Like said above, back in the early 90s charging probably was easier for some people, but now with longer windows for inputs and buffers, the majority of casual and hardcore SF players probably agree at this point that motions open up accessibility and options since you’re not tied down to a charge. Decapre was a prime example of a character purposely designed with options that can only be balanced with a charge. Just like how Bison’s Scissor Kick and Guile’s Sonic Boom work in ways where the best thing gameplay wise is to give it a charge. Otherwise you have to change how those moves fundamentally work.
Good luck with the fight, but I see this staying if people get comfortable with it. As long as Capcom did the basic balancing for him correct I don’t see how motions alone would make him too strong. You can always adjust frame data and hit boxes to account for that any way.
Age ain’t nothing but a number. I love that bitch.
The problem with this logic is that if we apply it to everyone (and we can and it will still make sense), you will end up with a character roster that is more than 80-90% motion, and eventually it will justify having a character roster of 100%. This is a problem to me and many others that is much bigger than Vega.
Generally speaking, if as you say Vega’s moves don’t match him being a charge character, then he should receive better and more suitable moves to match and play on the play style established for over 20 years. His aerial attacks all suit his charge playstyles, all of his specials in fact offer him windows of time to capitalize on with charges. The ones that don’t can be easily be replaced (see: SFV Bison) in the name of experimentation and “newness”.
You can even give him a motion special ON TOP of his charge skillset (See: Alpha/CvS Bison) and that would still be fine and dandy. But this drastic and sudden change to a character is uncalled for and unacceptable - it would be acceptable for ANY popular and venerable character in the series.
The efficacy of the charge play style can be dramatically improved with clever design choices. Giving normals or specials that better mask the charge and grant mobility (if the character is intended to be mobile), adding charge partitioning, reducing charge time, altering frame data and hit/hurt boxes. Charging is NOT a handicap when considered as part of a whole character concept. It’s only a handicap when narrowly seen inside a vacuum, and only in relation to motion inputs. Like I said, if you really want to give that charge character THAT move, go ahead make it a motion special - BUT don’t completely destroy the fundamental and mechanical way a character has been played.
I have NEVER heard people ask for Vega to be a motion character, let alone defend that viewpoint until this announcement - not in real life, and not in my 13 years here. It’s preposterous to me actually. We can argue day and night about the merits and flaws of the charge play style (they are known), and how Vega can be improved as a motion character or as a charge character. But the key question that should be asked is why are you killing charge characters? What does this trend mean and how far are you going to fucking go Capcom?
We know that ANY charge character can be converted into motion and they will benefit in someway- This is a fact. But why fix what’s not broken? Who asked for this?
Charge is not a handicap or an execution barrier, it is a play style with its own risks and rewards. Charge is not obsolete or archaic, charge is one of the foundations of this series and continues to be enjoyed and played by many. This is the reality of the situation, how is it evolution to get rid of it like some say? It is in fact a REVOLUTION to get rid of it, one that no one really wanted.
The truth is, you need to think more to thoroughly and deeply to design a good charge character and Capcom are showing signs of wanting to think less when it comes to these things. It is easier to give everyone the same inputs than it is to balance a different play style altogether. This is the real problem here. Honestly, if you can’t recognize what’s happening to charge characters as a deletion of a player identity or as a genuine loss of an entire group of characters that are integral to the series, it’s okay - Because you* are probably Capcom’s target audience now and this game is being marketed for you. Congratulations.
*Speaking in general, not to you specifically Devil.
I wonder if now that everyone knows she went as Vega if she will change characters next time she goes, the whole point was to be anonymous to an extent.
On topic: I think that it might be a bit early to really know how this is going to affect the outcome. They did say that Vega being a charge char is still under consideration and may change. Vega was never about having safe moves though other than RCF. Making him a motion character fits him quite well if you ask me. They can change how +/- his normals are to compensate and still have him have great pokes while also being a motion character.
I’m curious to see how who else turns out to be a charge character in the future, I imagine at least 1 of the new cast members will be charge.
maybe they just want to have a faster gameplay, kof has a ton of fast grapplers and faster characters that dont have charge moves or 360 moves and it works fine.
I would be pleasantly surprised if they actually come up with a decent charge character again.
I suspect if Urien makes it in he too won’t be a predominantly charge character unfortunately. All this actually makes me really grateful that Bison survived this bullshit that they are pulling.
There have been faster SF games than SFV with charge characters and everything turned out just dandy. If you want faster gameplay start with walk speeds, dashes, and jumps how about that?
Again, unfortunately the surprise hits people who haven’t been playing much other than SF the hardest. If you’ve been playing any other modern fighting game, the charge characters are few and far in between.
Which again, I still haven’t heard anything other than “Vega should be charge because we’ve been holding back and down with him for 20 years and thats just what Vega players do”. Vega was one of my favorite characters back during the 16 bit days and even during Alpha 3 and I never really felt him being charge identified him. It didn’t seem essential to him like sonic booms are for guile or scissor kicks are for bison.
There are a lot of things in SF that change without people asking. Nobody asked for 2 button throws, or taunts or air blocking or supers or ccs or fadcs or V Trigger. When do people ever ask for anything that wasn’t introduced to them first by Capcom or another dev? Fighting games have always done new things to see if they can add or freshen up.
I like this concept as it shows that more characters can benefit without being charge. It also shows that Capcom has room to come up with more interesting charge characters like Decapre who actually have playstyles and special moves that are necessary to balance around charging. Vega doesn’t have any specials with quick recovery or start up traditionally where its really vital for him to be a charge. It’ll be interesting to see if they can come up with new characters that have legitimate reasons to be a charge character.
It would have made a lot more sense to me if Capcom came up with new, legitimate, and interesting specials that are necessary to balance around charging for Vega than it is to completely change the way he is mechanically played. This is ultimately my point in regards to Vega, and any established charge character for that matter. It would’ve been an easier pill to swallow than what they ended up doing to him, speaking as someone who has been playing SF/Charge Characters/Vega since the early 90s.
Thats true. They could have gone the Decapre route with him, but I like this as it shows Capcom isnt afraid to do radical things while still keeping the core of the game more traditional than SFIV was.
With the moveset Vega has had of the last 20 years, it really didn’t have any reason for it to be specifically balanced around charging. I feel he will still play relatively similar, just with more options. Hes gotten quite a few new moves and options outside of the motions as well.
I say at least give yourself some time to swallow the pill and look at the options this opens up for Vega players. I imagine if Honda or Blanka get in the game they would be charge as they indeed have special moves that are either very safe recovery or quick start up where it is necessary to do to fit their style.
As more charge characters get put in the game it should make Vegas change seem less glaring I think.
Excuse my ignorance but how game breaking is this REALLY considering all the strong motion characters that have ever existed ever in SF?
Motion Vega is hardly the straw that breaks the camels back.
If Capcom shows a commitment in SFV to maintain and improve the charge play style (as they have done in SF3 and in SFV Bison) by adding more and/or creating new creative charge characters that are up to standards, I would be very happy and more forgiving towards Capcom’s decisions. But so far the outlook is bleak, with only Bison. So I hope you’re right, Devil (because you’re always right, except when you are wrong).
Could be also they want to make vega more playable and less broken at the same time. His wall dive is still no where near as insane as ST or as fast. And as far as I know, I havent seen any Vegas win any tournaments in USF4. Of course no one will complain how good evil ryu or akuma is, cause you know the hive mind of shoto fanboys.
I think Vega should be a mixture of charge and motion like he already is haha what a pointless comment i’ve just added to the discussion.
This is more an indication of Vega status in the SF4 era itself and not on Vega’s general concept and history. Charge characters in general received the short end of the stick in SF4, Decapre in many ways was the best/most inspired charge character of that era and she didn’t join the party until much later. Having said that, Omega Vega was really cool.