keeep your head up playas they gotta do somethang good to m.bison.
I’m kinda thinking that some kind of overhead would make his corner attack way more scarry
I just want to be able to use it like I used to in ST. Part of what I loved about Bison was his Psycho Crusher. It’s mesmerizing. I don’t know how a developer could play SF4, or watch others play it and not be disappointed.
ONE of them has to be in the arcade and ask himself “Man, the Bison players, they never use Psycho Crusher. Why?” Someone has to have that logic, you know? No Dictator, ever, in any high level play uses it even once. Even intermediate level, it’s unusable for the most part. It’s just not right. I’d be just as upset as a game designer if I didn’t see Guile’s doing Flash Kicks or Chun Li’s not using Lightning Legs. I wouldn’t want to make it broken, but I’d just want to see people use it. To have fun with it. Even if it’s horribly unsafe, give it a property that makes it usable. More damage maybe so it can be used in combos more often instead of Scissor Kicks, etc.
Just have it out there, and viewable, cuz it’s a beautifully designed special move graphically, someone in the art team spent some time on it.
We should take this discussion/thread to capcom or something.
capcom seems to only be concerned about characters who are popular and forcing there new characters down our throats while making our classic fan favorites (Example M.Bison) complete trash, while making the new & popular cast balanced or broken. shit is really pissing me off.
Sometimes I feel inclined to keep bumping this thread in hopes that some one on the ssf4 project sees the thread, and that would give them the drive to get off there azz, but that a mill in one chance of happening.
Even so I still will keep my head up.
Bison will have his turn.
^ game’s basically done and capcom isn’t going to come to srk and wonder, ‘hey what do the folks think about bison?’
don’t get pissed off, think about it bison is SOLID as is. he has weaknesses but he is still mid-tier, arguably upper mid-tier. he goes 5-5 with A-tier Ryu and Akuma, that’s saying a lot when people have a lot of trouble with these guys we have the tools to frustrate them and lock them down. Don’t discredit SF4 bison so much, he’s not the greatest but he’s not as bad as we/people make him out to seem. He has VERY few matches against his favor in a matchup oriented game, maybe like 4 at most.
lets just wait it out. trolle will eventually give us some new info and at the least we’ll get some minor buffs and we might get pleasantly surprised, who knows. just keep your heads up.
Let me preface this by saying that it’s all opinion and you’re certainly entitled to yours. Part of the game is developing an individual playstyle and approach to combat, so here goes.
His tools aren’t fool proof by any means but the only time he’s gon’ get raped is if he has no ex… some have an easier time punishing escape attetmps (gief, sim, seth) but the point I was making is that in ST bison was basically fucked. You had be NKI Yuu Vega to escape. Everyone else just kind of gave the other player a round for free. A big part of the Bison meta game was to stay out of those corners and apply constant pressure because you couldn’t deal with corners and crossups could be very costly.
Now I agree that as a design decision it’s odd that they would keep that aspect of bison’s game but not the others (high damage, great combo potential, insane dizzy potential and just all around shenanigans king) but they generally seem to be going into more defensive minded playstyles leaving Bison as the odd man out.
Some things about the gameplay in general is fucking retarded though like how trading on a move can mean eating an ultra for you. this basically skews any risk reward away from bison and that has to go. When crossups are a big part of your game and your oponent can magically turn around, reverse, trade and still land a juicy combo there’s a serious issue with the overall design philosophy.
Actually I’ve found many uses for DR and HS. Iit is pure mind games: empty DR for throw, DR for poorly timed jump in attempt (ex version for focus attempts) and HS situationally (wakeup for chip, up close for stopping jumpins, high low shenanigans from a canceled low normal).
Again, I’ll agree that as a mingames tool the HS and DR need some work but they’re far from useless and the more I think about the more I think that a very minor change to either could significantly alter bison’s play. Crossup ability would be very nice and probably sufficient to fix the problem along with better frames/ better hitbox (but that generally applies to SFIV. the hitboxes in this game are messed up. What I wouldn’t give for a training mode with hitboxes like in HDR). Damage isn’t an issue with either. It’s not the purpose of the HS or DR to damage but to allow Bison to play with his oponent and for mobility.
it’s a feature of how the game mechanics work. If they forced a character to block that would mean that the moment that your opponent threw out ANY attack you’d stop and block. that’s dumb. The issue isn’t forcing the guy to block it’s putting the guy in a situation where he has to block.
All the changes you suggest here would make bison S tier and unlikely to happen anyhow and frankly not required.
IDK, I hope bison gets some love. The problem with Capcom is sometimes when they try to fix someone they end up completely breaking him - either for good or ill.
Damn just look how useful stomp and DR use to be- especially in the third round (yuuvega st) [media=youtube]USLfBO5vcJU[/media]
Its so much faster and Bison doesn’t make a sound when he does dr or headstomp. The balrog didn’t know wtf.
I was more impressed at how safe and useful psycho crusher and j.mp was. Jump back mp hit crouching boxer (edit: or so it seem, looks like boxer walked foward but still amazing), amazing!!
Man, I really want to get a definite idea of the tools or lack of tools good ol’ Dic is going to get this time around. It still gets me to this day why they didn’t decide to keep the cross-over properties of the DR and SD, unless CvS2 lacked them (I wouldn’t know since I’ve only just started playing that game again after 2 years of not knowing what I was doing). I’d rather know about Bison’s changes than the actual announcement of the last character, especially if that last character does in fact turn out to be an oily Arabian named Hakan. Hopefully they increase the number of active frames on some of Bison’s moves, specifically his j.mp’s and his SD (I think it only around 3 active frames). OR make his PC as fast as ST and his EX PC as fast as Rainbow Edition. :lol:
how sick would it be if we could hell attack juggle after a super? lol. we typically end up using a lot of our meter but guys like kuma and even STD have convinced me that SUPER is worth saving since scissors is GOING to hit at some point in the match. lately im trying to change up my strategy so that I only use meter unless I absolutely positively have to. anyways, that’d be awesome super —> hell attack —> nightmare booster/psycho punisher. oh the glory days. i just played some HDR and re-watched some of those vids and it makes me sad/pissed off. more pissed the fuck off.
re: beta Bison
You know, I’m pretty sure the real reason why people won so much with Beta Bison was because people didn’t know how to fight him back then. If SFIV Bison was exactly the same, but with a better Psycho Crusher, he would still be mediocre.
re: Headstomp
There are two problems to Head Stomp in this game: 1), it’s speed suggests it was designed for a 4:3 perspective, not 16:9. And 2) it doesn’t force an opponent walking backwards to block on activation. It also seems to have a very narrow hit box (though it’s got a huge vertical hitbox - practically his entire lower body), which is why crap like Chun-li doing c.HP can avoid it. Thus, even if it’s tracking is “fine”, the move as a whole is too slow and too easily avoided compared to its predecessors. And of course, it has huge landing recovery now (it may have had huge landing recovery before, but making Bison whiff a headstomp completely pre-SFIV was very difficult and not something you could take advantage of).
So to bring the move up to par with earlier versions, it would need a speed boost, a wider hit box, force a backwards walking opponent to block, and possible have lower landing recovery. And that’s just the head stomp portion; I’m not even talking about Somersault Skull Diver being able to cross up. So yeah: The chances of us getting ALL these changes is nearly zero. 
Inverse:
> I was always concerned when people balance a game without the intent of making everyone the best they can be. S.Kill says “We don’t balance with the intent of 'Hey let’s make this guy #1!”.
These statements don’t contradict. “Making everyone the best they can be” does not equal “let’s try and make everyone #1”. Contrary to popular opinion, Capcom doesn’t set out to make anyone #1. They DO make soem chaarcters weaker than others in some areas (Dan is always crap, females always have lower health), but they don’t purposefully make certain characters as a whole better or worse than others, with the exception of obvious jokes like Dan. That’s because, what seems weak on paper can end up being much more powerful in practice (e.g. CvS2 Blanka is much worse on paper than CvS1 Blanka), so outside of grossly overpowering someone, there’s no way to definitively make a particular character #1. And hence, trying to make every character #1 is not only impossible, but pointless.
However, you can always try and make every character as good as they possibly can be, within the design specs of that character. You can make Gief the best grappler he can be, but you probably wouldn’t want to give him a projectile and a DP (we’ll ignore the fact that Lariat acts like DP ;), even though that would probably make him better. History is usually (but not always) a good marker of what to do and what not to do. Capcom, for example, will likely never give Sagat CE recovery on his Tiger Shots again because that shit is too good. Maybe if Sagat was placed in a Marvel-style engine they would do it again, but not a more traditional engine. There’s a certain upper threshold to making characters as good as they can be too; you don’t want a game like XSF, where everyone has at least one infinite (another example of why balance = overrated), or Samurai Shodown 3, where everyone is broken.
I’m sure we don’t disagree fundamentally, but I wanted to point out that what Seth said they’re were doing, i.e. “not about making this guy #1”, isn’t contradicting the statement that they were toning everyone upwards. Because even with making everyone the best they can be, imbalances will be present.
Now, whether they’re actually toning characters upwards remains to be seen. What Seth says they’re doing and what they actually end up doing could be quite different. I’m still pissed that Dee Jay lost crunple on EX Sobat and I’m pretty sure he’s going to suffer for it. I wouldn’t be surprised if post-release SSFIV Dudley and Ibuki end up being a lot worse than they are now, as well.
re: Bison update news
I frankly will not take on anyone who posts info on SSFIV Bison unless they play SFIV BIson seriously.
^ good stuff, but we’re not expecting Trolle to give us in-depth info on tiny nuances only a bison player would notice, we want to know about obvious changes if any. if he can confirm there are none, then we just hope for the best regarding minor tweaks. As for PC if it acted anything like ST crusher it’d be a HUGE game changer. not likely (i have no idea why the fuck not but capcom’s back to roots PR talk has me jaded) but a GOOD and not only better PC would be a huge improvement in itself imho.
[media=youtube]P_BF57RxUYA#t=0m39s"[/media] It seems the animation has been changed up a bit.
Ooh, looks like we’ll be able to combo into it~! Sweet.
i believe it is automatic k.o if connects. Bison is now in broken tier for SSF4
Yes unfortunately he has to charge up for 98 seconds before he can unleash this ultra.
I kind of figured this out a while go too. Using ex PC and even teleport too often becomes way too much of a crutch for some people. Always taking the easy way out and using ex ect isn’t get to help you on actual defense when using ex pc or teleport isn’t an option either (corner with no meter). I usually try not to use ex pc to reverse unless it has a high likely hood of actually hitting. Not to mention some people try to bait that out up close so its like a free throw on wakeup.
Also if Bison has a super the risk/reward for other characters to mash dp becomes much more favorable toward bison.
Good players, will, force you to use your EX stock though. If you’re able to get your Super bar filled, you’re* probably* kicking his ass anyway.
I generally get my super full by 2nd round, with first round filling 2-3 bars. I try to not use Ex unless I NEED to win the round, or I forsee pain in my future. As it stands, I like my opponent not knowing my full potential in the first round. Let them still be guessing how I will try to escape a situation in the 2nd or 3rd round, rather the first.
As for old school Bison vs SF4 Bison, look at the arc when he goes into HS. In old games, he sorta jumped at your head, now he does the same arc as a jump or a DR (ALL of which are too floaty in my opionion). Too much time for your opponent to deal with it (Ultima, fantastic points about what needs fixing with it). #1 priority would be making it force characters to block like EVERY OTHER MOVE. I mean man, can you imagine how fucked shoto’s would be if I could just walk backwards during all their tatsu’s?
As for PC, I can’t watch old school PC without crying. Whether it’s the great speed, the fact it can go THROUGH an opponent (rather than block = death), or even if it doesn’t (lp PC for instance), he recovered in time to land a sMK. Now, we’re stuck with a shitty junk move that has absolutely NO fucking use. I was screwing around with it yesterday, and for the life of me I can’t see ANY reason I would ever use mp PC. It still goes full screen distance like FP, but is slower, and if it gets blocked (and it will) you still end up getting completely owned.
As it stands, bison has like ONE move (lk SK) that has decent recovery, everything else is ass without proper spacing, or blind luck.
I also miss how you used to be able to DR way past a guy, then swing back and hit him. Pretty much the only time I nail a guy with DR in SFIV is when this ability gets forced by an opponent who does a move that moves them closer to where I was standing. Hell, you could just DR to the other side of the map most of the time. And cMK stopped a shitload of stuff. I would love to stuff Rog with cMK’s all day lol