If it was a Backward + command, it could work since it would allow Bison to perform a charged attack immediately afterwards. Simple, effective and quite deadly when used in mix-ups.
I disagree with a backward command overhead. If you want to go for the mixup, you have to give something up.
You can’t have everything.
Psycho Banish won’t be very useful. I have no idea why people want that. I have an easier time vs people crouched than I do people neutral jumping. Bison’s answers for that shit are very unreliable bc what beats them all depends on the exact range and who the other character is. S . hk will almost always work but only as a preemptive tool and that carries its own risks.
He just needs his current tools to serve more of a purpose (besides scissork which is fine)
I was saying in earlier posts that headstomp and DR should be faster but now that I think about it I’m not sure how that can be done bc if they were to speed them up to the point where it actually makes a difference in forcing people to react quickly that would mean they would probably also be able to punish fireballs too easily on reaction. Not very balanced.
I think we should make a realistic list of what we can all agree on and send it to Capcom so they can consider it.
I’m going to make a list of what I think can be done- I am **definitely not **saying all of this should be done, these are just ideas. I’ll try to do each section by what I consider the order of importance.
Normals-
C mk more range so certain combos don’t whiff so often (crossup on Balrog). Also because its fucking short.
c lk does 30dmg OR add 1 extra frame of hit stun.
Horizontel j. mp, 6 frame start up. Maybe slightly better hitbox.
s. mk does 90dmg
c. hp has 10 frame startup not 12.
slide has 11-12 frame startup instead of 14
Either fix neutral jump Mp, or have Bison say either “What am I doing?” or “What is this?” in a very disgusted/irritated voice.
Scissor kick-
All versions do 200 stun. I have no idea why these do 150 when nearly all specials it seems do 200. 150stun really makes his offense less rewarding than it should be.
Lk version does 35 chip dmg, 20 the first hit, 15 the second. Obviously the chip on the others will be increased.
Ex Scissor does not knockdown, instead it leaves the opponent in hit stun while Bison can tack on some more hits (if he is quick enough obviously.)
Psycho Crusher
EITHER
Lp version does 200 stun, mp 250 stun, hp 350 stun(If they boost all SK stun to 200, then 200,250,300). OR Add 30 Damage to each (maybe HP does 250 stun).
OR
Add 20dmg to each, all do 200 stun, tweak recovery so if Bison spaces whichever PC right, it is pretty much impossible in most cases to punish him with a combo when he lands (extremely little landing recovery). Make the PC always hit twice (for the chip).
EX properties changed so it beats lariat and Tatsu. Or add a couple more invincibility frames so he can pass through things like ex tatsu and lariat. Decrease startup and make it unthrowable.
improve the hitbox, especially so it at least trades with jump backs/jump ins, or works vs jumps similar to Honda’s headbutt.
speed it up a bit
Headstomp-
Give each version its own zone and recovery.
Lk version has same range as lk scissors MAX range (2nd hit of scissor), Bison has 1 recovery frame upon landing if it whiffs.
Mk- about same range as mk scissors, -5 on whiff.
Hk is beyond to full screen, 12 recovery frames if it whiffs.
Ex Headstomp can hit from anywhere, -5 recovery.
Get rid of the sound Bison makes when it starts up.
Make hitbox become active sooner ( really don’t know a good number). Maybe after 15 frames? Also improve the hitbox so it can never be beaten by a any sort of crouching normal.
Improve tracking so it doesn’t whiff just because someone does a move that moves them forward.
Devils Reverse.
No sound at startup.
Breaks armor or can crossup. Really NEEDS at least 1 of these, otherwise it is almost totally worthless and should be replaced with a new move.
Meter gain at startup AND during the flip OR just at the startup (so DR/HS can’t be told apart at startup) BUT also let Bison gain meter when doing teleport. His meter gain option(s) is terrible compared to what the majority of the cast have.
Make it hit lower, can’t just be easily swept when you were about to hit the person.
Lower recovery to 12 Frames.
Skull Diver
Can cross up.
Startup 4 frames, active for 7.
Better hitbox so it usually stuffs normals easily (like Sagat’s j mp) or give it more finesse potential to beat them such as faster speed, or maybe make the hitbox come out differently depending on lp, mp, or hp, but they all do the same damage.
Can’t be avoided by dumb shit like shotos c.mk.
If Bison doesnt do SD and lands empty, no recovery frames (I think its already like this).
Teleport
Wasn’t going to say anything about teleport, but something popped in my head. It would be cool if Bison had a fake/cancelable teleport, like Viper’s seismo. Something that could be used not only for mind games (Bison could make it look like he teleported behind someone, but he is still in the same spot) but also to create new, really challenging combos somehow, just like Viper can with canceled Seismos.
Just imagine Bison teleporting all over as he is executing a combo, it would be look scary and hilarious at the same time. It would take godlike execution to…
Fake /cancelable teleport on its own would be super badass though. The mind game potential…
Bison is already a really strong character and a lot of what people are asking for will just make him unstoppable. Being reasonable, I’ve come up with a few things that could make him more viable in high level play.
Let DR crossup
Better priority on j.mp
2-3 frames on c.lk links
Let DR crossup: Let’s face it, Bison is all about mind games, trickery and making your opponent second guess himself. DR would open bisons crossup game much much more and wouldn’t let people get away with walking backwards and punishing the block. Honestly, the move is pretty useless as is right now and is only good for building a little bit of meter at the start of a round, or when you have a giant lead on your opponent and can spam it while turtling.
Better priority on j.mp: I know for some characters, it’s impossible to land an ultra, and for others it’s part of their everyday bnb, but Bison got shafted on both parts here. With j.mp he has the potential to land an ultra every round, but the fact that everything and anything will stuff j.mp, it makes it very impractical. Rufus, Ryu, and Gouken(just to name a few) all have very safe reliable ways into ultra(Target combo, LP SRK/Ex tatsu, Back grab), yet all three of those characters can stuff my j.mp with their own air jumps(j.rh, j.mp, j.mp) and juggle me into their ultra. Bison needs more priority on his only juggle to give him that comeback edge that he lacks so badly now.
2-3 frames on c.lk links Anyone who has seen the best Bisons play(Andre, Kim, Min) know that bisons game relies very heavily on his c.lk. The fact that this is a 1 frame link doesn’t make it impossible to consistantly land…but very very hard, and the punishment for missing these links is far greater than the reward for hitting them. ( [media=youtube]6c0zztWgzzA[/media] is a great example.) I’m not saying to make it spammable like balrogs jab or anything absurd like that. Keep the timing strict, just not 1 frame perfection strict.
I think with these simple additions, Bison could once again be a top contender in high level play and we could actually see the return of great players who once showed potential with him, but ultimately picked a more reliable character to use.
I agree with everything you have said. If they don’t make the c. lk link easier though, they should definitely increase the damage of c .lk to 30dmg. But if they were give an extra frame of hit advantage the current damage is just fine.
But they still need to improve regular headstomp. It has no consistent use. It can work as a preemptive antiair sometimes (can be beaten), but its so risky and S .hk can do the same thing for the same damage and much less risk.
Psycho crusher needs either damage/stun or recovery properties changed to give it a use. If they were to just do recovery it needs to be nearly unpunishable if used right , quick and very few recovery frames, much better hithox and always hit twice for the chip. I’d rather they just mess with its damage/stun properties instead.
I am more interested in getting a slightly better cMK. cMP->cMK shouldn’t be as hard (or situational).
You are forgetting that ALL characters are getting buffed in SSF4. So your simple introductions that would make him balanced in THIS installement aren’t going to be enough to balance him versus the NEW AND IMPROVED Sagat/Gief/Ryu, etc. etc. Not to mention that all of Bison’s good matchs ups will be receiving buffs.
This is a 2 frame link actually, so it’s fine as is.
But yeah, hell attack definitely needs a better hitbox. I really don’t care if Ryu’s j.mp has beaten dictators j.mpx2 since super turbo, this is a new game and Ryu doesn’t need to be beating Bison air to air for an ultra juggle.
^What he said, it’s a 2 frame link. Now if you could either give him a 3 frame jab (preferably this) or add 1 frame hitstun, on cr. lk to make it easier to end combos on cr.mkxxsk starting from cr.lk
Don’t even care if you nerf the damage on ex stomp, just make that shit track better.
Like others have said, make DS controlable from start like Vega’s wall dives to give him that crossup game.
Might not be a popular request, but I’d rather have his old st. hk from ST. Right now it whiffs on alot of crouchers at the range it should be the most useful. I don’t consider it a very reliable anti-air right now anyway so I wouldn’t miss the angled version.
Jump mpx2 is trash, please change this.
Add more range to jump hk. You can even get rid of its crossup properties for all I care, just give him a good jump normal with decent range. As is, even if you guess right on Sagat and Ryu (forgetting the fact that you probably shouldn’t be jumping at them anyway), you’ll rarely be able to land a hit.
Speeding up headstomp would not break any even match ups he has now (I do not see the gouki,ken,rose,ryu match ups suddnly tilting decisively in his favor just because of a sped up headstomp.)and give him a better chance against guile and sagat. Aside from this it would make canceling into it from a standing normala better tactic than what it is right now.
His j.FP is a godly jump normal. Anybody who plays a Character without a uppercut can definitely attest to that. The fact you cant land a hit on sagat and ryu after a jump in has nothing to do with range. It has to do with the fact of bisons incredibly floaty jump.
I definitely agree with buffing the priority of his j mpx2 though. I dont understand how rufus has a much better air to air to ultra then bison when bison has to rely on his to get his ultra.
I know it’s damn good, but it has no horizontal range.
No. Bison isn’t especially strong, and moreover, he’s fucking boring as hell to play. The changes I’m suggesting aren’t just to make him better (though they will), but to make him fun.
I agree with making DR being able to cross up, but I see nothing about fixing Psycho Crusher or Headstomp (or making Scissors Kick work like it’s supposed to, which gets overlooked a lot) so I stopped paying attention.
I’ve never been one to main Bison :wonder: but if no one has addressed fixes for his PC then i’ll be pleased to be the 1st. :china:
lp [110] hits once; will FC a 1 hit FB and stop travel.
mp [6060] hits twice; will FC a 1 hit FB and hit w/o knockdown. 2 hit FB stops travel.
hp [505050] hits thrice; will FC a 2 hit FB and hit w/o knockdown. 3 hit FB stops travel.
ex [6060*60] hits thrice; after ex armoring 1st hit, will FC a 2 hit FB.
PC requires all hits to knockdown. EX has lvl 2-3 FA crumple on 2-3 hits.
My two cents on how PC should work:
-Frame data on all non-EX PCs should be the same, the only difference is the distance traveled.
-The travel speed of the move should be upped slightly.
-Fatten Hitbox for easier crossup potential.
-Reduce both the blockstun and the recovery by 8 frames each.
-Up the damage to 160 (+30 from HP PC), and stun to 300 (+100 from current amount)
The effects would be that:
a) PC crossups become terrifying, because a wrong guess or two can lead to dizzy
b) a whiff/throw game would be possible, because of shortened recovery, making PC even MORE terrifying.
c) PC is the new “max damage” combo ender. Or max Stun, anyway.
d) bison would overall become a scarier, offensive beast. Like he was supposed to be in the first place.
What do you mean when you say scissors kicks doesn’t work like it’s supposed to? I’m just curious, because it seems to work properly for the most part.
You do realize how subjective that is, right?
maybe he means not giving you a knockdown so you can continue comboing.
DR cross up could be countered in the exact same manner as vega’s barcelona attack. Honestly, if they see its DR they just have to Focus. You could mix it up with EX devil’s instead of normal but thats a mindgame bison already has. Also in teh age of auto dp, how scary is an air mix up anyway? Just Dp and it dang don’t matter whether you were crossing up or not!
I like the idea of being more leninet on the c.lk*3 combo though, and yeah j.mp should be improved somehow cause it gets stuffed out too much. Bison’s gonna need A LOT more than just these three improvements to compete in th new world of SSF4 though.
If they give him crumple EX legs plus the bare minimum of what we all want, then I think that’d be enough but it seems like people who play dictator are afraid of getting tools that will vary his play or give him an obvious advantage. There’s no way I’d turn away an on the ground ultra setup, no amount of pride in me would reject something like that.
As much as I like his playstyle now, I don’t care if he’s changed drastically so long as he turns into a high risk high reward character with plenty of offensive tools with little to no defense. I don’t care if he gets psycho shot or some wacky new psycho crusher, just make sure it WORKS and gives him a reason to be offensive instead of relying so much on punishes and feints. I want more legit on the ground mixups,right now bison’s mixups are too simplistic and easy to spot.
hows about ALL DR’s could do 2 hits, and ex could do something crazier (ie Crumple)? If top players can backdash out of the 2nd hit, after FAing the first, I say props to em.
just throwing something out there…DR requires a lot of fixing…as much as, if not more than, PC
and I am heavily leaning towards a massively powered up cMK (more range, better linking properties, etc etc)