The SF4 Juggle System:

To the first part about j.mp, no–you can’t. 2 hit j.mp doesn’t let you do any normal fireball afterward, it -has- to be EX. If it’s just the first hit, then yes, that works because the first hit puts them in float and in float state you can be hit by anything.

As for the ultra juggle, you also can’t. fp srk > ex hadou > ultra (FADC’s respectively) is a 9 hit combo. 1 from the srk, 2 from the hadou, and 6 from the ultra. You can try that out yourself in training mode, you’ll notice the ultra hits 6 times and then carries on through them.

As for the lp srk and fp srk issue, depends on which stage of an FA you hit them with, at level 2 or higher, you can hit them with either lp or fp srk. Just tested this myself. They have the same properties.

Pokey-- When a character is initially knocked down, the JC is 0. SRK > FADC would be Juggle Count 0, not 1, since the initial knockdown doesn’t add anything to the JC, nor does any attack that alters a player state.

So the J.MP looks like this:
The first hit connects, puts them in float state-- JC = 0 Float Knockdown
The second hit connects, puts them in standard knockdown-- JC = 0 Standard Knockdown

At this point, anything with a JP of 1 or greater will connect, but nothing of JP 0 will connect. This is why you can’t SRK, normal hadouken, normal tatsu, or land a normal move on them afterwards, but the second hit of EX SRK, both hits of EX Hadouken, EX Tatsu, his Super, and his Ultra will all connect (permitting the possibility of landing them).

This is still just confusion of my terminology to yours :stuck_out_tongue: we know the same thing we’re just explaining it differently… >_<

I use JP 0 as float stun, purely because… Well, a Float juggle is still a juggle state, i’ll remember in future, no need to confuse people further

This is one long PM, let me tell you.

When someone is hit with a float knockdown move, doesn’t that mean that their JC is -1? Because even moves with JP 0 can hit it?

^^Yeah, that was why i kept it as JP-0 (as in, an aerial opponent is JP 0)

Didn’t want to get in to minuses, seemed silly :stuck_out_tongue:

But yeah, in Kich’s style,i guess a float juggle is JP-1

And there I sent my PM. A whopping 6 pages in word XD

Oh, and Vegas sky high claw doesn’t knock down on ground hit. But Blankas d,u+K and b,f+K balls does.

That’s certainly a way of thinking about it, yes, -1 is probably a bit easier to wrap your head around rather than the longer explanation of it.

Reading your PM now. Will update what needs to be updated (thank you for providing some links). Thank you for contributing, this is exactly what I was hoping for when taking on the whole cast!

Some things to clear up from your PM:

  • a FP.SRK from Akuma doesn’t knock down until the second hit, so when used on the ground, you can connect lp and mp shaku’s since after FADC’ing the 3rd hit, the JC is only 1.

  • I was able to finally juggle into his ex air tatsu. It’s 0-1-2-3-4 for the 5 hits, just like Ryu’s is. The problem is, it’s very difficult to connect given that the first hit will whiff. When it does, it looks weird as hell. You suck them up into you and they get hit by the backswing of your leg then get thrown into your rotations. You almost have to jump past them to some extent.

  • Yes, Notable juggles are listed as follows: Disregards meter possibilities. It’s shown as “Move” > “Everything that’s able to juggle off of this move.” That way it condenses space, rather than listing every complicated juggle scenario, just a brief list of what can actually juggle off of what.

  • Chun’s EX SBK, unlike the tatsu’s, actually knocks people down every hit. There’s no way to land 3 in a row since the first 2 put the JC to 9 (the initial hit knocks down, the following 9 add to the JP, making a 10 hit combo).

  • Dhalsim’s Ultra is CCSK - Knock Down (Float) – which means, as you described, if they’re not on the ground it’ll cause standard knockdown, otherwise it will cause float knockdown.

  • I’d have to thoroughly test that Fei Long assumption, I’m far more inclined to believe that has to do with shady hitboxes rather than the second and forth hits randomly not being able to juggle like that.

  • Yes, the first hit of Gouken’s EX Palm does -not- cause float knockdown. It doesn’t knock down to begin with, so if they’re in the air or in crumple 2, it’ll standardly knock them down.

  • Added all of the accurate data you gave me (which was just about all of it). Some of the moves weren’t included initially due to their inability to be juggled into, or my hasty assumption that you just couldn’t juggle with them (Bison, is mainly whom I’m referring to). Updated the honda info as well as every other character you provided me info for.

  • Seth’s EX Tanden Engine doesn’t put them in a glitched stun state, it’s just normal hit stun. I’m unsure of how you found that Lightning Kick data out, as afaik you can’t FADC out of it? A video explaining what you wrote would be very useful, as as far as I knew, the whole attack is simply a combo to which the last hit causes standard knockdown. The rest of the hits don’t knockdown, don’t need JP, and is just hitting someone with an abundance of hit-stun.

  • In regards to Hard Knockdowns, I suppose I should be more clear about that. I was trying to write it in such a way that it just implied that…typically, anything that causes Hard Knockdown ends a juggle since most things that do are Super’s, ultras, etc. but by no means does it actually do so. Just more often than not, that’s the case. Realistically speaking, it’s just a knockdown state in which the person can’t tech the landing from and, again, as far as I know, can’t go back to float or standard knockdown.

I view the knockdowns as a hierarchy-- Float > Standard > Hard, once it hits one, it can’t go back. There are no moves that put you from standard to float, just as there are no moves that put you from hard to standard. Updated the main page to reflect an easier understanding of Hard Knockdowns.

But i positioned myself so that the first one only did three hits, then the second one did five, then the third one whiffed completely. It shouldn’t whiff as the LP should be 7, maybe the hits have 5,6,7,8,9 LP?

I’m quite sure what I said is correct, because it’s hits 2 and 4 that causes the rest of the ultra animation. Try doing flame kick FADC ultra, so that the 2nd hit “hits” the opponent.

if you get hit by a projectile between the first and second hit of lightning legs, this weird state occurs. Here’s an example (last combo), but because I cought him on the ground, he was just in a normal standing float, but with no control: [media=youtube]hYfZxtOCLk4[/media]
I don’t know exactly how the move works, but judgjing from the properties of the first and the last hit, my explanation makes sense.

Try doing ex tanden on a state 2 crumpled opponent, then chain some c.LPs.

I think this glitched standing float occurs from every move that grounds opponents, because someone told me they had the same problem when catching someone in the air with rufus super, then having him get hit by a projectile after the 2nd hit.

Thanks Kich and Pokey86. It makes sense now.

BTW, nice to see this sticked…

Cheers guys

EX SBK’s got funny hitboxes. A few Japanese players actually investigated this using Capcom’s debugging kit (it enables you to view hitboxes) and they confirmed that even though you should get hit, sometimes the move whiffs. I’ve landed in the middle of one once as it started up and didn’t get knocked down.

Ok, then maybe that is the problem.

But is there proof that it isn’t JP 5,6,7,8,9?

Btw, Yoga mummy (thats j.d.HP) causes CCSK.

[media=youtube]X6FG8qGo_Yk[/media]

Now if only Ken could have 7 bars.

Just a small correction to the juggling possibilities of viper. Viper can juggle any in air opponent with LP and MP thunder knuckle.

on a grounded opponent it doesn’t juggle of course. On an opponent in juggle state it does work.

Example of my own quite terrible replay online: [media=youtube]y0LaijTYoag#t=1m28s[/media]

I think in properties lp and mp Tk are actually identical to HP tk

The combo in the video is:

HP xx EX seismo HJC mp thunder knuckle, hp thunder knuckle.

hp thunder knuckle can be replaced by Ultra or EX burning kick (up to 3 hits).

On a Focus attack hit, if you wait till opponent is on his knees and you do MP/LP TK (and probably also HP TK) the enemy goes into juggle state, and you can combo into ultra in the corner. If someone jumps up, and you ‘anti-air’ with LP or MP TK they go into juggle state, after which you can connect ultra as well.

You seem to have misunderstood his system a little. Seismo causes float juggle, where any move can hit. So when you connect with MK TK, the JC is still 0, because they went from float knockdown to standard knockdown. Now, MP/LP TK have a JP of 0, so they can’t connect, but Ultra/HP TK with a JP of 1 can.

Putting it simple, there’s a lot of times you can hit with HP TK, but not LP/MP TK, so it’s a better juggling tool.

^^I’m guessing we can expect this alot…^^^

I’m goiong to make a thorough video, soon. Displaying the key differences between juggle states & the float states.

Sadly, through no fault of there own (Bare in mind, you Kich & myself have probably been fucking about with this stuff for quite a while.

& i’d like to know how in that vid Ken went from an EX SRK to that did 2 hits after his Super (I’m guessing it relates to the hits of the Super) then a full Ultra, i’m very skeptical.

Kich,you stated that vegas ultra haf infinite juggle.How did you test this?Did you manage to juggle into it?

infinite = there’s no way to make it whiff because of juggle limit. The only combos that I know of into Vegas ultra is FA and df.HK, and any move can hit out of those.

Well if you do Scarlet terror then ultra,ultra magically wiffs through them,which i would call as NOT inifite juggle.

      Regarding fei long's ultra,are you sure you can hit with hits 2 and 4?Because if you do antiair LVL3 focus attack which puts themin floating stance, and quiqly do ultra,the 2nd hit goes cleanly through them but doesnt hit,which suggests it not being able to hit airborne opponents, or just how the last hit of cammys ultra cannot trigger the cutscnene on airborne opponent even if he is in float stance.

This is all taken into account. Seismo puts people in Float Knockdown, to which anything will be able to juggle them. The video you showed me is you connecting a mp TK on an opponent in float state, you could have just as easily punch or kicked them.

“Juggle State” is a very vague phrase, since there’s several different juggle states. Anyone that’s knocked down is in a juggle-able state, it’s a matter of whether or not your character has a move that can A: continue the juggle and B: is in range to be able to connect it.

Here’s how it happens.

Counter hit FP SRK puts them in float, Ken’s super keeps people in Float State if they’re already in it on impact.

Since they’re still in float, the initial 2 hits of Ken’s EX SRK also keep them in float state (All this is already recorded, except maybe about his super, in my data), since even after all of that they’re still in float state, Ken’s ultra will fully connect.

Ken with infinite meter = juggle god.