The Sanwa and Seimitsu FAQ

Tech Talk
1662

Seimitsu joysticks generally have more resistance than the Sanwa JLF…

I think it has as much to do with the fact that they have gated microswitches on them as it does the heavier coil springs.

The gates on the microswitches in addition to the slightly greater spring resistance is what eventually turned me towards the Seimitsu line of joysticks. (I prefer Sanwa pushbuttons for their greater sensitivity, though. There are a couple of very decent Seimitsu pushbuttons and at least 2/3 of the line is cross-compatible switch-wise with the Sanwa OBSX-X line of pushbuttons.)

The gated microswitches is what has made it easier for me to use square gates on the Seimitsus as well as enjoy playing pre-SFIV fighters with joysticks. The greater looseness and greater throw on the JLF has made it very difficult for me to try to adjust playing older Capcom CPS-2 fighters (Darkstalkers, SF Alpha, the Marvel games, etc.) with that joystick – square gate or octogate installed.

By contrast, the LS-32-01 and LS-40-01 have been easier to play with on both polygon fighters and the old 2D/sprite-based fighters. The LS-40 is allegedly the same joystick used in the SNK Neo Geo cabinets (Samurai Shodown, Fatal Fury, King of Fighters), too.

There was nothing I found that I could reasonably do to make the JLF a better joystick for me and I’ve read all the mods and tried a few. Unless you’re willing to rebuild the actuator and change about a half-dozen other things, throw will always be an issue with that joystick.

On the other hand, I’ve never been crazy about having an ultra-hard resistance joystick, either. The LS-32/LS-40’s seem to have the right amount of resistance for the majority of games I play. The -32 in particular is also pretty darn good for 2-D shooters, platform games like Earthworm Jim, and Pac-Man (with the subguide four-way restrictor gate).

All joysticks have their quirks and things most of us don’t like about them. You just have to try and experiment and find out what’s most comfortable for you.

This is by no means the last authority on the subject, and some of us have questions about its conclusions, but this link to a SlagCoin FAQ is as good a beginning point for making decisions about parts without buying everything in sight and going broke I guess… ==> Joystick Controller - Joystick and Button Attributes and Brand Parts

1663

Try sending Cen a PM to see if he remembers which kind of stick that was.

1664

Thank you, ordering now.

1665

@GeorgeC - Have you ever tried a JLF with cherry switches + single ls-55 spring? It engages about the same as LS-32/40. I really like the feel, because you don’t get alot of tension from the microswitch but rather the spring. I’m also a P360 lover so I’m not too into feeling the micro switch like a lot Semi lovers are. Cherries are damn near silent in a solid case, not a plus for everyone. Only people with: wifes;babies and input hiders :stuck_out_tongue:

1666

Could I swap the following:
[LIST]
[]Seimitsu PS-14-KN plungers into Seimitsu PS-14-K bodies using Sanwa microswitches SW-68s?
[]Sanwa plungers in Seimitsu PS-14-DNs bodies?
[*]Sanwa SW-68s in Seimitsu PS-14-DNs?
[/LIST]

Also has anyone compared the feel of Seimitsu PS-14-Ks using SW-68s to Seimitsu PS-14-KN using Sanwa RG-SGs? I’d just buy them and try them myself like I normally would, but it wouldn’t be cheap. RG-SGs go for $5 a piece from Aki.

1667

No.
Unless you also swap the Plunger Insert.

Probably not fit.

Yes.

1668

I have question more geared toward arcade cabinets.

Why did the japanese arcade industry switch to LS-32 unfriendly panels?
Like why did they start making JLF-only panels?
Is it really that expensive to make + shaped mounting plates? (similar to the HRAP2)

I find it really weird that all of sudden japanese arcades started using JLFs exclusively.
Like most Net city panels will only fit a JLF or something similar.

What exactly made the JLF better than the LS-32 to arcade operators?
Did it have a longer operating life or something?

I am biased towards the Seimitsu LS-32, but I didn’t start with it.
I had a HRAP1 with a JLF that a played with for a few months.
But as soon as I played with a LS-32, it felt so much better. There is some stuff I can do on a LS-32 that I cannot do a JLF.
For example, with Hugo, I can do crouch block into hand clap(hcb+p). I cannot do this on a JLF.
It disappoints me that the JLF is favored more nowadays.
Especially considering that it’s more expensive than a LS-32.

1669

What would be a safe minimum clearance for a LS-32? I need the case to be very slim.

Im planning to install it this way:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Rfh2b.png[/IMG]

I hope that crappy paint effort of a diagram is clear.

Thank you in advance.

1670

Any help? Please?

1671

On an LS-32 I’ve had it in a 2" case, you might get away with a 1.75" case if you have a very thin bottom panel, i wouldn’t recommend any less than that.

1672

I have a LS-56 and I find the spring too tight, is there a spring I can buy that fits in the LS-56 ? I was hoping it would be the same size as a JLF but its not. I really like the LS-56 better than a JLF but I want it a tad softer.

1673

For the smaller red line in your diagram I think you need about 4.2cm or roughly 1 and 5/8ths of an inch to comfortably squeeze an LS-32 in there. To actually move it about without it grinding against the bottom, I couldn’t tell you. LS-32 has the reputation of a small stick, but if slim is the thing you’re really after, a JLF requires significantly less depth below the panel.

I have a question myself though, does anyone know if there are officially available color codes for Seimitsu buttons? I’m putting together a template and having a color code for the blues would really help make it look sharp.

1674

Didn’t bother quoting the rest of the original post… since the answer is going to be the same for all the questions.

It boils down to Sanwa is more popular in Japan.
I don’t know why — it’s just been that way for at least 10years. Both companies seem to make parts that are equally durable unless Japanese arcades report differently. Most joystick customizers that have modded or built more than a few joysticks have used parts from both companies.

Up through sometime in the early 1990s, according to other people, Seimitsu was more popular, then they got eclipsed by Sanwa.

Seimitsu’s obviously still in business and once in a while a bone is thrown to Seimitsu fans and an actual Seimitsu-based joystick gets made – usually a very limited run edition of a few hundred examples using an HRAP case. They get horrendously expensive quickly! Thank Hori for at least making the HRAP SA faceplates universal mounts. There are more of those and Mad Catz TE’s in particular that have had Sanwa parts swapped for Seimitsu parts than there have been official Hori Seimitsu-based joysticks produced.

Still, nobody seems to make joysticks that are all Seimitsu parts as a regular production series. That seems to be left up to the end-user and it’s not appealing to most people to have to replace all those parts at a loss… Most customizers will NOT replace both the joystick and buttons. A lot of people here favor replacing either the joystick or the buttons but usually not both since it’s hard to trade parts or sell them unless they’re brand new, marked down, and specific colors. Also, many people prefer keeping either the JLF or Sanwa buttons. Nobody generally likes having to sell things at a loss or find a trader. Most new people are fine with the OEM equipment in their joysticks

1675

Hello, I’m working on a Agetec Dreamcast “green goblin” stick I’m fitting out with a bunch of 30mm Sanwa buttons and and a JLF stick, and just had some quick questions on some basic things I’m looking for.

First question. The button wiring uses 3 pin connectors, and it seems an easy way to fasten the buttons to the wires, does anyone happen to know what connectors the buttons use? Currently they’re using the 3 pin, but that’s nowhere near wide enough. Is it possible to use an 8 pin connector? I’m assuming if I go this route I’ll need molex pins. Would it just be easier to use the .110" fastons? They seem like they’d fall off easier.

Second question. I’m looking for some small 3mmx10mm nuts/bolts/washers that would fit the Sanwa stick. I’ve got the chassis all ready to go, but can’t find these and was wondering if anyone could tell me if these are typically available at hardware stores, or if they’re available someplace online?

This is my first mod stick and I’m looking to get some experience under my belt before attempting anything harder, though it seems this is a rather harder project than I had anticipated.

1676

Sanwa buttons were always the standard. Seimitsu buttons are only generally used when they come stock with control panels. When the stock ones break, they are replaced with Sanwas.

Seimitsu joysticks, the LS-32 in particular, used to be the standard for everything (since its introduction in the 80s) prior to Sanwa introducing the JLF being introduced in the mid 90s. The JLF gradually became the standard fighting game joystick over the years. The LS-32 is still standard for everything else that doesn’t use specialty controls such as light guns, steering wheels, and flight sticks. The other Seimitsu joysticks are generally restricted to certain types of cabinets: LS-33 for very small cabs, LS-40 for Neo-Geo, LS-30 for games that require a rotary joystick, LS-56 is an attempt at a JLF clone that was used in late 90s Sega cabs, LS-55 is a larger form factor LS-33 but the dynamics are completely different as it is scaled up. I have no idea what the LS-55 was originally developed for.

The smaller form factor of the Neo-Geo AES stick demanded a smaller joystick (the LS-33 was not around then) so it used a custom non-rotary LS-30 that felt closer to an LS-32 than the LS-40 used in actual Neo-Geo cabinets. The buttons were custom Seimitsu ones that didn’t feel that great.

Seimitsu is generally considered to use slightly lower quality materials than Sanwa but both are still very good, slightly better than Industrias Lorenzo. Don’t even mention Happ. They are unworthy of comparison to the other arcade equipment companies and actually now sell Chinese knockoffs of the IL products they used to sell (they bought joysticks in kit form from IL and sold them with lower grades of Cherry microswitches than those IL included with them themselves).

LS-32 and JLF:

  • Both have some design issues. The four way mode on the JLF simply doesn’t work and the LS-32 jumps in it’s pivot. The JLF also isn’t a universal joystick and sucks for everything but fighters so why anyone would want to use its 4-way mode is beyond me.
  • LS-32 gate is weak. It gradually wears down. It works in four way mode though though the insert for four-way impedes 8-way movement and should be taken off for 8way, unless you care to wear it down too (I gather it slows the rate that the main gate wears down). The JLF has little wear.
  • JLF pivot wears down faster than the jumpy LS-32 pivot.

Both sticks are about equal for fighters but get the LS-32 if you want to play other genres of games such as shmups, puzzlers, and platformers.

Word of warning: You can’t mount the JLF at the proper height in the Green Goblin without some modifications.

1677

Nothing personal, but wow you just made the whole history up, good job man.

1678

Do youknow the real version?

1679

well thats what I’ve sort of inferred by reading this forum for years. Please correct me if I’m wrong but I think I got the gist of it right.

1680

I just installed a Seimitsu LS-56 in my TE what a difference my execution is dead on now

1681

One thing I wish could be added to the FAQs is the list of the mounting plates needed to install the different series of Seimitsu joysticks in the Mad Catz and HRAP joystick series. The HRAP is the most ridiculous because of the sub-divisions between the non-universal licensed joysticks (Tekken 5, Arcana Heart 2, etc.) and the two distinct lines of SA joysticks (pre-V3 SA and V3 SA).

Have to include the new V3 SA in the equations because the mounting is different for the Seimitsu joysticks. It requires only two screws versus the four needed in the HRAP 1/2/3 SA and Mad Catz SE/TE lines.

I know, for instance, that the LS-32 and LS-40 mount with the SS Mounting Plate in the Mad Catz SE/TE’s and the HRAP 3 SA and HRAP V3 SA. However, for the generic HRAP’s (HRAP 3 series and the licensed HRAP variants) only the LS-32/LS-40 series Flat Mounting Plate is compatible. LS-56 series fits into the generic HRAP 3 and HRAP subvariants with its stock mounting plate. Fairly certain (not 100% sure, though) I read that the VF Mounting Plate for the LS-56 works with the HRAP V3 SA. There’s the new question if whether the Mounting Plates that worked with the Mad Catz joysticks and previous-generation HRAP 3 SA’s will still be compatible with the V3 SA owing to the fact of the central screw-in position for the Seimitsu mounting area… This opens up new question marks for people who would want to install LS-55’s, LS-33’s, and LS-56’s in new build HRAP V3/VX’s.