There are definitely big problems with the reasoning they’re putting forward. There is no logical connection between “we want to discourage mistreatment of women in the community” and “so we’re putting them on display in a separate event.” If they instead said “we want female role-models in the fighting game community to be more readily available for female gamers,” it would make a bit more sense, but there would still be problems with the reasoning. Since the women are required to participate in both events, it isn’t a way to help them avoid mistreatment that might take place in the main event–they’ll be there anyway. It is definitely a means to put them on display. That’s not necessarily in a negative sense either–I can only imagine what they’re trying to display is tolerance and acceptance; this just isn’t the best way to do so.
If they’re determined to open the community up and make it more appealing for female gamers, then there are better ways to do so. Encourage more interviews with female players during the live broadcast. Perhaps do a series of interviews (either on stage, in podcasts, in print, or some combination of the above) with female gamers in the community, and have it openly address the difficulty in breaking into the community. Explicitly define what is considered sexist behavior, and that it is prohibited. Let the punishments for those behaviors be well-documented and available. Come down heavily on garbage like the “Swoozy Stalker Cam” that was at Devastation 2009. Obviously, we don’t have control over every event that’s shown, but when things like this come up, have the community gather together to make sure that it is pointed out, and not remotely acceptable. For those events we can control, draw a line in the sand and say “this is unacceptable, if it is done, you will be barred from future events.” Treat sexism the same way you would treat racism.
In short, do everything shy of actually having tournament structure treating them differently than the male players. Once you have any group treated differently for a factor that has nothing to do with their ability to play the game, whether they’re treated better or worse, you undermine that inclusive spirit that you’re trying so hard to capture with this.
I don’t know if its been suggested before but why not have the top 2 (or 4) get a by into Winners Bracket for the main tournament? So they get the publicity from having an all Female Tourney, then the female players can prove their worth in the regular tourney. Only compromise I can think of. Its def. a touchy subject but I don’t dispute its existence from a publicity standpoint (which will benefit the bottom line)
I think it’s a bit of a mixed bag. On one hand it puts out the “separate but equal” vibe which does belittle women to an extent. To that end I mean for one usually when people have women only events unless it is organized by a woman (and sometimes in that case too) it is more focused on the gender rather than the gamer. Which either means it goes one of two ways: “pin up with a controller” or “hey we can play too! Go gurlz XOXO”. Both extremes are detrimental in my opinion (and if I see one more controller in pink or lilac… I swear I’ll…) and they have little to do with enjoying a good game with a fellow gamer.
On the other hand I look at it like this, I’m a member of a few “for women by women” gamer forums because after a point the testosterone deluge does get a little grating. There are a few threads on SRK that I stay out of because I know its not going to do anything but raise my blood pressure. Mainly because there is always a group of “e-macho men” that have to make every other sentence a slam against women. Sometimes you want to play against someone that doesn’t feel that you play well in spite of your gender (as if it is a negative) rather than just noting your play style. Or for that matter if you are new to the genre you don’t need someone slamming your gender to death. That discourages women from playing on a larger stage. I have a few friends that don’t play online or if they do they only play with friends for that reason. I also think there are fewer professional gamers that are women. By that I mean gamers that devote their time to a genre or series. Fighting games are my favorite genre, but I have eight systems and my PC that I game on, not to mention my handhelds. I’m more apt to cycle through games than stick with a single one for a long period of time (though I do play VF at least twice a week) and most other women I know are in the same boat. I usually find that the games I like to play on an extended basis the scene for it has come and gone (I also live in the south and I think that may have something to do with it too). I’d say because of those reasons it is a little bit harder to get into a major tourney scene.
I suppose what I am trying to say is it really depends on the type of person you are. I don’t take offence to it, but I also don’t feel the need to shove my gender down anyone’s throat (which of course goes both ways) so I’m not a raging femi-nazi gamer. I also see the possible benefits of this because it is damn hard to find another gamer that likes the same type of games you like normally let alone one that also happens to share your gender as well. I think if used wisely it will give female scenes/gamers more networking power.
i think the girls only tourney is a good idea. i think giving them a lower entry fee in to the main event is not a good idea.
the people that are saying it’s not a good idea or it’s disrespectful seem to have a few general complaints
video games are not like sports where size, strength, etc are an advantage so it makes no sesne
it’s disrespectful because it says women cannot compete on the same level as men
etc etc
i think all of these reasons miss the point. the point has nothing to do with “fairness” or “equality” or anything like that. the point is about comfort and feeling welcome. i think a GREAT example for what i’m talking about is the fitness industry. curves gym is an EXTREMELY successful gym franchise that ONLY ALLOWS women. a lot of women feel uncomfortable going it to a gym, and having guys stare at them. or if they feel unattractive NOT stare at them. either way, the women do not liek being judged. it’s not like they need any different equipment. women use the same dumbbells and treadmills as men. that’s not the issue. the reason the gym is successful is that it creates an environment that’s more comfortable for women.
i was a personal trainer for awhile and i know a lot of personal trainers still and i can tell you for sure it’s VERY intimidating for a lot of women to go to a male dominated place where they’re not even competing for anything. i can’t tell you how many female clients would’nt even venture in to the free weight area without me or another (preferably male) trainer because it’s too scary for them. once they got in the routine and got comfortable, they eventually did’nt need that any more but they DID need it at first to feel comfortable enough to start. i believe that is the goal of this tournament. antyhing extra would be a bonus.
a quick example from my personal life was when i started doing yoga. i’ve spent a lot of my life playing sports, some very male dominated ones (ie wrestling, brazilian jiu jitsu and other combat sports) and also a lot of weight training. honestly, it was just weird the idea of doing a workout with mostly women after exercising and competing my whole life in pretty much male only sports. i can see how it’s about 100x worse when you’re a woman thinking of going in to a male dominated arena. it’s about making the girls feel welcome and comfortable, that’s all. the people saying it’s gonna be a freak show or it’ll just be the guys checking out the girls are missing the point. and the only way it COULD be a freak show depends on how us guys respond and is not on the fault of the tournament itself. i think it’s a good idea. that doesnt mean i think it’ll work out well. i just think it’s DEFINITELY worth trying. we’ll have more info to go on after the fact, but i think it’s definitely a good idea.
giving them a lower entry fee, though, i think is a bad idea. it’s bascially the same thing as girls paying less at the door of a club. clubs have people that actually have a guy who count the number of guys/girls in there so the ratio is maintained and i think giving the women a discount really sends the wrong message. it says some or all of their value comes from their vagina, whether it’s intended or not.
anyway, i think the tournament is a great idea. even if it flops, the information gained will have been worth the experiment.
I have my opinion on this being a EVO player since 2k2. I play in the brackets with the rest of the players man or woman. Girls need encouragement to try their best and practice hard. I can’t count how many girls have come to me and asked how I learned how to play. I said good friends and practice I remember back in the days of SF2,MK2…etc… I was the only female player in a tournament,but that didn’t stop me from learning to play the games better and have fun. I have met a few other girls that learned to play the same way I did.
If there is a all female SSF4 tournament,it might be fun anyway. As for getting girls to play more by having a all woman’s tournament,not really.
I agree with je110 on there are other ways of doing it.
I’m not generally opposed to the idea of a Women-only SSF4 tournament; I’m all for increasing exposure of competitive video gaming to everyone, and showing that it’s a fun activity that’s easy to get into and gets you lots of friends (maybe). I have a problem with it though, and surprisingly, it’s not sexism or misogyny or anything like that.
IMO, this tournament is predicated on a very shaky assumption: that in America and other places around the world, there are substantial numbers of female gamers who want to compete in tournaments, but they are afraid, for lack of a better term, of doing so, due to the prevalent “Locker Room” mentality that permeates the gaming community (and it’s truly a universal concept; I originally got into competitive gaming through CS, and it’s really no different there, or in any other community). So, when faced with the possibility of being objectified, harassed, etc., a lot of female gamers will take the easy, reasonable, and quite often intelligent route, and become more casual. This allows them to continue to enjoy the game (which should be the end result anyway), and they avoid most, if not all, of the negatives of being involved in a mostly male-dominated sect of gaming.
If the EVO organizers really want this to be a rousing success, bringing in more women to competitive gaming, and competitive SSF4 in particular, then active, visible steps must be taken to show that this isn’t an “Eye Candy” tournament, as some of the undesirables have posted in this thread. Incentives to compete in the main tournament are good, but they shouldn’t imply that this is a cakewalk tournament to make it easier for women players to get out of pools. Honestly, I kind of feel like if female FG players had come and brought this idea to EVO, rather than EVO thinking it up themselves, this wouldn’t be such a big deal…
Whenever I hear about girl gamers I always wonder why all the attention and publicity goes straight to them as if they are some sort of exotic new species from beyond the stars. Girls are people just like you and me, and thusly if they want a healthy representation in competitive fighting games then they quite simply need to do what the rest of us do which is practice hard and make the effort to get there name out there by attending tournies/being active in there community. I find that these"incentives"to encourage girl gamers is a bit insulting, why not just let the girls abide by the same rules and expectations as the boys and leave it at that…we shouldn’t be trying to organize these"side shows"to lure in girl gamers into fighters lol. If girls wanna play fighters they will, and if they dont then its no ones fault or lost…its as simple as that.
:lol: @ you using “etc etc” as a reason, and saying it misses the point. :lol: :lol: Is “etc etc” supposed to cover the multitude of other reasons people (including women) have listed for being opposed, all of which you conveniently fail to address at all?
You argue that a lot of women want to work out separate from men…which has absolutely nothing to do with the situation at hand. In fact, it’s an illustration of how misguided the effort appears to be. Working out isn’t a one on one competition. What does where they lift weights or run on treadmills have to do with them getting better at fighting games?
If the problem is intimidation how is this tournament going to make that go away? If the problem is a perception of hostile behavior toward females, how does this tournament change it?
I can’t speak for everybody, but most of us most vocal opposers to the tournament as we understood it to be at that time weren’t opposed not just because it was potentially condescending. We disagreed because it was unfair, consdescending, AND likely ineffective with a possibility for detriment. The requirement that competitors be registered for the main tournament greatly reduced (but didn’t erase) the unfair and condescending parts and did almost nothing to the ineffective part. It’s probably as likely or likelier to not make a difference. It’s probably less likely to be overtly harmful since it’s not drawing women away from the real tournament or an available excuse to not try to compete for real. It’s just not likely to do anything to change attitudes toward females – or any newcomers – in and of itself.
I maintain that this would be much more effective as a workshop for new players, male or female. Even if it were all female, that’d be better than what we’re getting now.
You don’t think a girls only tourney watched by whole much of men seeing how scrubby you play isn’t MORE humiliating or nerve-wracking? When a scrub plays another scrub, they BOTH look scrubby.
why don’t we have a NOOB only tournament, would any of you newcomers like to be cardoned off for the pros to watch and ricidicule?
The childish misogyny around here is one thing, but when it spills over into the events put on by the community, with the staff not even realizing it, it’s just sad. eSports are notorious for doing the women-only thing, so I guess this is a move in that direction, instead of evo being its own event.
There’s no value to running a women’s only event in a video game competition. You sit on your ass and press buttons. This isn’t power lifting or the NFL. You want to make the environment more inviting for women? Try treating them like people.
While this isn’t the wording I’d use, this is another good point. If we’re going with the idea that the fighting game community is (either actively or passively) hostile or condescending to women, is it really fixing the problem to separate them and have them put on a show for that same community that already is looking down on them? Obviously we would hope the community would be more mature, but if that were the case, then there wouldn’t be a reason for this anyway.
I totally agree. At least when a scrub or an average player loses to a very good player, it is not always laughable (as if they are being put on DISPLAY in order to be mocked/laughed at), because they were simply out-played (and losing to someone who is a lot better is expected, of course). IMO, no one improves unless he/she CONSTANTLY plays against good players; practicing in training mode, against the computer (LOL) and/or low-level scrubs is not enough-- you NEED character/match up experience!
As I said in the other thread (I think?), I can understand that some females or players in general become nervous and/or shy, but playing in more serious casuals, tournaments and playing better players will eventually get rid of some of that nervousness, IMO. Also, if the females who enter the regular SF4 tournament are automatically invited to the all-female tournament, then why is it necessary to even have that tournament-- why not just play against the best in the main SF4 tournament, and gain the best player/match-up experience EVO has to offer? Anyway, the new rules seem to make this tournament more understandable for some, but I still disagree with it, because it seems like some type of degrading side-show for LOLz, and may also be a haven for attention whores. No offense to anyone; my opinion, of course.
P.S. It is quite funny that the majority of females (so far?) seem to disagree with this idea, but I suppose it will stay in the line-up regardless…
this comes up all the time in sports.
*
So, I guess that having separate tournaments and rankings for girls and women is okay. But I have the nagging concern about competition and the statement that Womens titles are really a marker of lower expectations. And I dont like it for young girls to feel intimidated by boys. It would be nice for girls and women to be able to say that they are the best regardless of gender. I think that only by having girls and boys compete together will those issues be able to be overcome.
But the compromise, I suppose, is to have open tournaments in addition to mens and womens. That is what chess has been doing. I dont have a better solution.*
this is from the perspective of a female journalist. Now does she speak for every single woman, no obviously not but its still a female perspective none the less. Just shining a little light on the topic, this argument is NOT new.
I remember back in the days of SF2,MK2…etc… I was the only female player in a tournament,but that didn’t stop me from learning to play the games better and have fun. I have met a few other girls that learned to play the same way I did.