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I’ve been lurking over this matter and been seeing what other people think about it…
When I first heard about the all female SSF4 tournament,the first thing that popped into my mind was "90% of the entrants are just going to be attention whores who think they are good because they’re going to be beating up on other scrubby girls."
Now,I’m not a SF player,I tried to get into it but it just wasn’t for me…Coming from the CGS show, I did feel a bit discriminated when they split the males from the females.
TBH, I played with a lot more males online back in DOAU/4 rather then females so when I first got into the CGS I thought it’d be the same.
And yes, the competitive males can be intimidating to the females because I remember when I was trying to ask for help on improving my skills in DOA to another more “high level” male and they wouldn’t teach me jack shit lol.
Well,I guess they thought 5 - 0ing me or perfecting me all the time was “teaching” me something but anyways.
I personally think that the SSF4 femme fatal game will just be a side show, I know Evo’s trying to encourage more females to come and play…but like, if they want to pick up a controller,then let them on their on. There’s definitely no need for a special event for them.
I rather have SC4 takes its place TBH.
PS: If anything,I’ll watch the girls try to play SF,the none competitive ones, but definitely wont join.
This. Very much so. I feel that this is something the FGC needs anyway. I’m not sure what the plans for APEX 2 are, but it would be nice if there were some sort of leagues that players could classify themselves into.
I wrote about this in my blog (shameless plug ahoy!) as well, but a-cho sometimes has tournaments for people with arcade BP under a certain level. I went to one for 25K and under, and I believe they have them for < 35K and < 40K. It was nice to be able to compete and actually have a shot at winning, and there’s nothing stopping these players from entering the regular tournaments as well, which many do. If something like that could be worked out, I think it would encourage more people to participate in general, which is what we want overall.
The community definitely needs to be more accomodating, but it doesn’t really have that much to do with gender. Just look at the whole “Stupid 09’er” phenomenon that became significantly more annoying than the actual things that sparked the argument in the first place, imo. And your point about finding a place for the different types of players within the same community is true, but it’s a tricky dynamic to manage because the competitive people are always going to be trying to improve, and they can’t do that waiting for the unmotivated to catch up. Where I think this tournament falls short is I don’t think it really addresses the core issue, even if its motivated by that issue.
EDIT: read Watts’s post and your followup, and that’s what’s up right there.
Why not try to be supportive of people who deal with the ‘no help’ thing, like you did. And some of them who are even too scared to ask for help. Not everyone can come out and just ask, and this is a way to support it. You’re clearly not supporting it very well by calling them “non competitive”…it’s still a competition, just a lower leveled one…
I plan on participating in both, and hopefully the fact that myself, and I’m sure a few other females, will play in both will actually help the ones who don’t have the courage to usually step up, step up.
It’s not that hard to just say “Okay this is helping people come out of a shell, I’ll pay the $10 or w.e to try and help the shy ones out”.
Think of yourself in that position. Then say it’d still not feel like a ‘competition’.
Well, I reread your post right after I posted my response and did think I was being a little catty. There was no way for you to tell, but it did look to me like your intention was to be self-deprecating. But you don’t really have much to be self-deprecating about, do you, all things considered. Putting yourself down and excluding yourself from a conversation, believe it or not, communicates to people not just that you aren’t worth talking to, but that the person you were talking to isn’t worth talking to either. That’s the price of being self-deprecating, as I have a lot of experience in there myself.
Anyway, since it seems like we’re going to have this discussion, here is what I wanted to avoid saying about word games: I can say that women’s events are sexist in the sense of distinguishing by sex, but not sexist in the sense that they do not, in the long run, encourage “behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex” (the second definition I referred to in my post.) If the objective of the tournaments is the breakdown of sexual barriers, and if that objective is met, then we can call the event sexist by one definition, and not sexist by the other. If that’s true, we may as well discard the word entirely as it’s ambiguous enough to cause more confusion then it’s worth. The crux of the matter though, is whether we can in fact say that women’s tournaments will “in the long run,” (I use quotes for duly intended irony and skepticism,) promote the kind of breakdown of sexual barriers that the event planners are intending. As the future hasn’t happened yet, there’s no way to know for sure; so, on the one hand, we can both call the event sexist and not sexist, and both justify discarding and not discarding the use of the word. But of course, we’re much too mature to have that discussion, and typing out as much as I have is already belaboring the point.
As for your point about there not being any difference in men and women in terms of natural ability, I can only repeat myself and say that men and women not having any differences in natural ability makes it just as reasonable (in principle) to insist there be special tournaments, as to insist there not be special tournaments. But if we were to move outside principles and other thought experiments (i.e., our own fertile imaginations,) and look at what people are actually reporting on the effect of women’s tournaments, the empirical evidence I’ve read given by chess trainers is that, for young players, special tournaments with restrictions do make girls try harder if they think there is a field they have a chance of winning. (It’s the same reason why they split up class players and grandmasters for tournaments.) A second reason is to give young players inspiration, since the strongest women grandmasters are achieving honors without having to tear it out of the cold, dead hands of men. (The meta-message being communicated is that women don’t always have to gain distinction by making sure some man doesn’t get it. You don’t think that view has at least some merit?)
If you want women to prove that they can be the best and excel at the highest levels of competition, the way to do that (so the theory goes) is to start at the bottom of the pyramid, by encouraging players. (How many girls are fortunate enough to have Laszlo Polgar as a father?) People who think that women’s tournaments are top-down efforts don’t understand that the strategy pushes from the bottom-up too. We can find it distasteful or not, but the funny part is that, for all our talk, it’s not up to us anyway. Whether there will be a female tournament will be decided by the females, (which is the same as in the chess world,) and our opinions, whether they stink or not, ultimately have at best an indirect effect on the outcome. And that’s at least part of the reason why I continue to feel comfortable going on and on about this topic, with one wall of text right after another.
Originally from the Evo lineup thread, re-posting here.
Yah, okay, I’ve heard the same sorts of stories from other people. My current girlfriend doesn’t put up with that kind of crap though, even on days when I’m feeling particularly oafish and let myself go like that. On further reflection, I think the truth is that I myself am the one who has problems with tolerating behavior like that, and so it’s not cool for me to pin these notions on some concern for “a younger generation.” Hah.
I deal with dumb bullshit all the time at my local arcade, fart jokes and catcalls being tame compared to the thuggery, the bitchiness, the ignorance that is not only displayed but flaunted, etc.–learning how to deal with it has made me a lot better as a player and toughened me psychologically. Arcades are sort of out of the sphere of your control in terms of behaviors you can condone or not condone. Most of the behaviors I’ve learned how to deal with, making it so that I can push back psychologically on reaction, (figuratively speaking,) has done wonders for my street fighter while making me suck a lot more in other spheres of my life, where things like being fair and showing sympathy seem to actually matter. (It’s related to work, school, and family; even mildly sociopathic tendencies are not tolerated there, at least for what people expect from me right now.)
I don’t have time to get into it right now because Im exhausted and hitting the hay, but to be honest…
Yes I would react a bit differently I think.
The second one is more palatable for a couple of reasons.
If it were an actual exhibition, yes. If it were an open tournament run exactly like the main tournament but just with girls, no.
This is not a new conversation. We dealt with this 10 years ago in the FPS scene. Welcome to 2010, nimrods.
Segregation of the sexes is completely, truly, utterly pointless in videogames. To have female-only divisions or tourneys smacks of an insulting desire of ****** organizers who are basically saying “OMG WE’RE TOTAL FUCKASSES, LET’S INSULT EVERYONE PARTICIPATING”. It also reeks of female attention whores LIK OMG I PLAY VIDYA GAMES I LIK SAKURA CUD U GUESS?
The only reason it looks like fewer chicks play games is because they really just don’t want the hassle of dealing with the myriad fuckups that bray while mistakenly thinking it proves how hetero they are. Or would be, if anyone wanted them. Why else do you think Valle spouts off about “come to a tourney, young man!” this, and “i’ll pop your cherry, son!” that? Because the females, having passed on some survival instincts in their heritage, look at it and think “Hmm, smells like attempted dryhumping!” and just pretend they’re with someone else.
Wow, the response from this is amazing in such a short span of time, but it is understandable because it is interesting how the FGC is dominated by males in comparison to other competitive genres.
My question is simply…why? Why do we need to push females into playing fighting games? Is it because they have the potential to view the games in a different light and expand/improve the fighting genre as a whole? Is it because some feel they are missing out? Is it just for the sake of diversity? This has been mentioned many times already but an all female tourny would be unnecessary. As corny as it sounds, aren’t we all striving for some kind of equality? New players or og players, young players or old players, male players or female players, everyone should have the same goal; you play to get better and ultimately WIN. You shouldn’t play because of your gender, but for the love of the game. And if more males love the game then so be it. If we want females to compete, we should introduce them to the FGC the same way we introduce any other individual, not put them in a playpen and keep watch.
I think it could be good, it could cause women who might play games, but maybe not neccessarily street fighter to hear about it and think, that could be fun, and enter. Sure these people would probably not do very well, having little experience, but it would increase the number of women playing the game, and a large number could decide to stick with it, and maybe return next year and enter in the main pool. I think it could work as just a targeted expansion of the community.
However it could also just be a pointless tournament with very small attendance and very little intrest from anyone but the competetiors
ya and when you morons in the fps’s were dealing with it, other non strength related games dealt with it years before you:wink:
run-
I feel where you’re coming from… I really do. It boils down to a difference of opinions over whether or not creating separate tournaments for women will actually be helpful to the cause in the long-term.
For my part, I’ve seen women get pissed off after losing, train, get better, and take sweet revenge. And I’m man enough to admit that I know a couple of girls that flat out slay me on Modern Warfare. The woman who becomes the first female world champ is only going to do so by not settling for women’s tourneys. I don’t like the idea of the segregation, even though I respect the feelings behind it.
I agree completely on one point: the women will decide for themselves. I, for one, hope they are insulted by the idea of a separate set-up and use that to drive them in preparing for the real tournament… where everyone can compete. Black or white, male or female, young or old, healthy or sick… don’t mean jack shit when you pick up the stick.
A lot of other people have already said what I think more eloquently than I can. The separate tournament sends the wrong message to the community. That’s my opinion. I don’t feel like I can express myself any more clearly than others already have, so I’m just going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Whether we agree or disagree, I respect the people on both sides that want to open the community’s doors for everybody. I’ll leave the decidin’ to the smart folks.
Okay, fair enough, I agree to disagree.
Edit: I think I’m done with this thread for a while.
You parse language as well as you dress. GG, dipshit.
Provided the all-girls tourney won’t discriminate against males joining, this may be my only opportunity to reach Top 8
So I say lets keep the all-girl tournament. Unless I cannot enter…
Can guys enter the all-girl tourney? Don’t believe we’ve had a straight answer to that.
Hi, i am the term all girl tourney. Apparently we haven’t met.
I think this is a completely reasonable alternative idea. Let’s face it, SF4 has brought renewed interest to fighting games. It’s brought a lot of new players. Some of them are women and many of them are men. Welcoming new players into the tournament scene is a good idea, regardless of gender.
As should be obvious by now, I’m not *against *a women’s side tourney. But a gender-neutral noob side tourney also seems like a good way to ease people into the hardcore IMO. I think it would have to have restrictions though. Maybe never played at Evo before, or at the very least never made it to semi-finals in any game ever. Something like that seems harmless to me as a SIDE tournament 
Ya dude…wear your cutest skirt :xeye: