Uhh, no. EoD does great damage, has a small break window, makes an already great characters throw game much better and allows for free followups (db+2 or even HS). The execution gate for this move is their to give the move a very specific use. People should know their frames and know when they have time to buffer this move, if you make it simpler, by making it ff+1+2, then the move then receives a mere 2 frame execution windown which is too small. The execution portion of this move is designed to make sure that it’s use is relegated to more specific circumstances and not used as your standard throw choice in any and every situation where you have even mild frame advantage. I know you’re already aware by your own admission that this move has the properties I mentioned, but still I hope you understand why that suggestion isn’t all that good.
VF features a far more evolved version of this idea than Tekken does, since all moves that yould be abused are made to have longer execution frames, as opposed to tekken where crushing launchers and hopkicks are easy (often single inputs like df+2 or uf+4) and can be thrown out in place of defensive pokes, since really why bother when you can score half life on a random crush? In VF a move like Yoho for Akira takes longer to come out because of the slightly more compicated and time consuming execution, forcing players who have this tool at their disposal to think harder on when to attempt hitting it. Execution is simply a balancing tool.
It’s actually 3 frames, for Heihachi it’s 2 frames IIRC. Kazuya’s is the easiest because his mist step allows him to cut out the “d” input and go straight to df after a short neutral.
Lastly, Im sure you know that ewgf is 5+ on block, usually leads to ridicolous damage, can be used as a DEWGF and a WEWGF, and it’s huge hitbox makes it both a nutorious whiff punisher and a dirty keepaway tool. I know for a fact that a lot of Tekken players will co-sign me on the idea that EWGF is still dirt easy to do after some practice (even Heihachi’s, I use this character and even his is still easy as shit to do), and not only that but considering all that it does Im sure you would agree that forcing it to be a more precise input isn’t such a bad thing.
It depends on how intuitive the games motions are. Like I will always remember Jacks shoulder barge (df+3+4). The df input covers the downward diagnal arc of the move and the 3+4 has to do with Jack’s legs bending downward to move his upper body forward. You can have something that’s simple but still take a long time to remember because it’s simply unintuitive (see Mortal Kombat). In Tekken,strings are incredibly easier to remember because the buttons you press are fixed to somehow and in someway match which attacks you are doing on screen ensuring that after you do them you will almost always remember it’s there or remember after some warmup time, where as in MK even single input attacks are hard to recall and strings are nearly impossible to remember unless you rigorously try to memorize them individually as opposed to remembering them intuitively or remembering their strategic value. Yes the end result is probably that Tekken and Soul Calibur are amongst the easier games to play, but the important thing is why.
high level execution isn’t supposed to be easy. Its a reward for obtaining it. Thats the fucking point of execution. It opens new doors for strategies. If you don’t have high level execution, you have to use strategies that don’t require high level execution to win. So what if you can’t use the strategies you want, the only thing stopping someone from obtaining high level execution is themselves. " I don’t have the time to play that long to get it." It can take a month to 6 months to depending on how much time you have and if you’re complaining about high level execution, stop posting you’re counter arguements and go hit training mode.
Look @ the excuses you guys are throwing out there because execution is too hard, " my vagina hurts." " Its too hard." " I don’t have the time." people have gave up massive amounts of time in order to dedicate themselves to their craft.
Basically what you’re saying is that you suck so bad @ execution that you want it toned down because you nor other
ew players can hack it in execution heavy games. I picked up mvc2 after transfering over from being a 3s player. Totally different game thats based on all execution that I really didn’t have. I hit training mode, started practicing and now my execution is pretty good. I didn’t bitch about it being too hard or that I had no time to practice. If you want to be good @ something, you’ll practice to get good. Not change the rules to aid your lack of execution.
ok, say for example you do tone down street fighter. You’re not going to improve the general skill level of the community. In fact, you will lower the standards of the average player. So what’s the point? all you’re doing is adding more scrubs to mix who otherwise wouldn’t be able to play. blah blah, more competition!!! fuck no, its just scrubs that will be playing. There will be no new competition. Competition is high level players with execution to kill you. Thats competition and lowering execution standards won’t create high level players. You have to raise the bar to keep getting better, not lower it… street fighter has always been a survival of the fitest. If you’re not fit enough to compete, you lose ggpo.
A well designed game should offer rewards for players with good execution abilities. But there comes a point when developers just add in heavy execution into a game for no apparent reason. So execution should be a part of what makes a good fighting game, as long as there is a balance.
is it completely inconceivable to you that there could be players that won’t excel in current games because they find the execution too hard / too annoying to bother practicing, but have enough strategic skills that they could excel at a game where such difficult execution isn’t necessary? that’s not adding “more scrubs”, its allowing more people to demonstrate their skill at the INTERESTING part of the game
If someone finds execution to hard in a game and isn’t willing to practice and get better at execution, then fighting games just isn’t for them. If they want a game strictly based off of strategy, then there are these things called strategy games you know.
I find this to be an interesting topic, not b/c of execution, but because of the mentality. When you really get down to it, taking out execution is really a cry for “make it easier so I can get to my goal”. I notice this very same thing in education. Kids can’t hack the standarized tests, so we lower the requirements. The national IQ falls about 2-3 points, and you end up getting dumbasses like Bush in office.
Anything in life (games or otherwise) worth having is not going to come easy. If you want to make money, you have to work hard. If you want to be a Doctor/Lawyer/Businessman, you have to go to college and work your ass off. If you want to make money without a degree, you’re going to have to do your research, look at your talents, find what you’re good at, perfect it, then hustle HARD. With fighters, if you want to be top tier, do that 2 frame FRC, get those EWGFx5 combos, or get those ROM resets to a point where you could even mix up Justin Wong, then you’re going to have to practice your ass off.
There was an earlier post about doing 6FRC6s in GG. As far as I know, Bridget and I-no use these alot (It’s a MUST if you want to be good with Ino). I’ve been practicing Ino for about 6 months (on a pad mind you), and my 6frc6 exectution is about at 80% in practice, but at 25% in a match. So what should I do? GO PRACTICE MORE. Whenever I do hit it in a match, it’s so rewarding I never know what to say after I get it.
We as Americans need to STOP BEING LAZY, and step our game up. This is what seperates us from the Japanese/Koreans. We know what it takes, most of us are just too lazy to get there.
In summary:
STOP BEING LAZY. Take the time to become top tier. There are plenty of fighters out there that are not execution intensive (SSBM, DOA), so if you don’t like execution, play those games instead.
These bitches don’t know. Step your game up or you can’t complain about it.
lowering the standards make the community weaker as a whole. You’re an idiot polarity. This applies to everything not just fighters…
If you lower test scores, sure kids will “achieve” their goal and graduate high school but how many of those kids could become lawyers\doctors? by lowering test scores, you allow them to pass but make them dumber by default. Now those kids aren’t smart enough to get into grad school to pursue their career because the community lowered the bar for kids to pass.
If you want more doctors\lawyers\engineers, you raise the bar of schooling. You make kids learn faster, you make kids go to 6 days of school. Look @ japan and their technology. They increased their schooling methods to aid the country better and look how much technology japan puts out a year.
prove it. getting good at strategy and getting good at execution are completely fucking different tasks. what if someone enjoys thinking about how they play, devising new strategies, you know, the entire mental part of fighters, but just finds practicing combos totally boring and doesn’t want to put in the time to perfect their execution? how can you say that, in a game where execution isn’t as big a factor, they wouldn’t put in the work to get good at the strategy part of the game that they actually enjoy? there’s no reason to believe that, you’re just making shit up.
God, why are you people so fucking dense? Nobody is talking about making current games easier, because it’s fucking impossible so it’s pointless discussing. We’re talking about the potential for FUTURE GAMES. Did you read my first post in this thread where I demonstrated exactly why this “stop being lazy” argument is bullshit? Here:
It isn’t a judgement, it’s just the way fighting games have always been. It’s true they have gotten a bit harder over the years, but that’s just the way they evolved, it’s not like they haven’t gotten easier in other ways. Someone mentioned earlier as an example on how much easier DP’es and 360’s/720’s have gotten over time amongst other things.
As I already said, they did tone down the execution difficulty in Street Fighter, in a huge way, from Street Fighter to Street Fighter II.
According to your logic, here’s what must have happened:
The extreme difficulty of the original Street Fighter created high level players.
When Street Fighter II was made, the standards of the average Street Fighter player dropped because they made the game easier to play.
The player base of top tier Street Fighter players was infiltrated by scrubs.
As a result of this lowering of the bar in SFII, the hardcore competition died out and only scrubs remain.
You know what? Maybe they never should have done that. Maybe the fools who couldn’t hang with the original Street Fighter were just too lazy to hack it. Fuck the losers; if you can’t deal with flogging a pair of plastic bulbs with millisecond precision in order to get your special moves to come out, you don’t deserve to win.
I understand what this thread is for. What is constantly being said here though, is that execution demands will always be there in a fighting game because that is what a fighting game inherently IS. I mentioned the past to help establish this simple fact. You can’t just seperate this aspect of a fighter from it’s very definition just because it doesn’t conform to your personal prejudices. As long as the execution aspect of the fighter doesn’t outweigh the strategy aspect, Im cool with it because that means that strategic thought and analysis is the primary factor in determining the outcome of a match. As far as I can tell, top GG and VF players still feel that this is true for their games, so they are still just as valid as any other fighter.
Polarity, you keep saying that you don’t want current games simplified, but you think future games should put more emphasis on strategy; my question to you is, do any of the current fighting games put enough emphasis on strategy that is to your liking, or are you completely dissatisfied with what has been offered thus far? And what games, to you, are the biggest offenders of “too much execution too little strategy.”?
I’m not sure about the games you play, but allow me to put this into perspective for you. Take 3s into consideration. The accepted top tiers in that game are Chun-Li, Ken and Genei-Jin Yun. For the purposes of this argument, we’ll just compare Chun-Li and Yun.
I have a fair amount of experience with 3s, and from watching matches, playing people and going to practice mode, it can be safely assumed that GeneiJin Yun is much harder to use execution wise than Chun-Li. Doing Genei-Jin combos require alot of practice time, especially to figure out the specific combos on certain characters. However, when this is figured out, Yun becomes a monster.
What do you need to figure out with Chun-Li? c.mkxxSA2(windkick super iirc). THAT’S IT. That’s all you need to be somewhat effective. Mix in knowledge about pokes and tick throws(c.mk covers both btw) and Chun-Li becomes a monster.
Parrying won’t be considered because it’s something all characters have to master to be effective.
So now you’ve worked on Yun for about 3 months, and your genei-jin is just plain stupid. A week 2 chun-li comes in with her c.mk, and you find yourself totally even.
This aspect of easier exectuion doesn’t bother you at all? In the end, devolving execution makes for more boring gameplay in the end, because all the options begin to look the same because they’re so easy to execute. The majority of aspects of the game are found out very quickly, and the game dies out because nothing new or interesting is able to be found.
Execution AND strategy are what make fighting games so awesome. If you dumb down one the game loses it’s depth and becomes boring much faster. This is why MvC2 is damn popular, despite being out for 7+ years. That game requires more execution and strategy more than any other fighting game to date.