I don’t see your contribution.
stfu/gtfo.
*ObZ
Could you please link/translate said discussions please? It would be interesting to read.
Oh man. So much repetition.
Here’s the deal: what makes having a hadoken in Street Fighter a good thing? Is it because it requires time to learn the motion for it? Is it because it is tougher to do than a normal move, therefore weeding out players who haven’t put that time in yet? No. It is a good thing strictly because of the strategic value its existence adds to the game. The fucking motion on the controller has jack shit to do with anything.
A lot of you are arguing with the premise that players with weaker execution don’t deserve to do as well, that they should be weeded out. Exactly why do the people with weaker execution need to be weeded out in the first place? Are the guys who spend six hours a day practicing trickshot combos in training mode getting worried that some kid who plays down at the bowling alley is going to come in and show them up purely with superior strategy? Is your grip on masculinity so tenuous that you need all these artificial barriers (which they definitely are) in order to keep out maverick tactical players?
Perhaps it’s because strategy isn’t something you can get with mere rote practice. Strategy can’t be practiced in training mode. You don’t get better at strategizing just by repetitive exercises. Strategy requires that you turn your brain on, that you plumb the depths of your creativity, and that you do it faster and better than your opponent. That’s something you only get by playing other people and playing them a lot.
Compared to sitting at home and turning on training mode all day, that takes much bigger balls. Weeding out players based on their execution rather than their ability to think their way through a match isn’t doing anything but enabling players to skate by based on the speed of their fingers rather than the speed of their brains.
A lot of folks in this thread are talking like the deepest strategic layer of fighters is knowing when to do what move. You know better.
Just look at what a fighting game is at its core-- it’s a simulated battle. As a simulation, there’s an incredible duality because you are both commander and combatant. There’s a whole bunch of characters, but you’ve got to pick one (or two or three but thats irrelevant-- the point is you’ve got to make a specific decision) to bring to the field. That part is a purely strategic aspect. Next is the battle, where the line between commander/combatant blurs.
At any given point you (commander) are assessing the situation (your HP, meter, and position, as well as your opponent’s, what moves/setups are working, the opponent’s various tendencies). Meanwhile, you (combatant) are down in the trenches dealing with the situation, trying to land that combo, trying to tech that throw, trying to parry that Dragon Punch, etc.
What if in SF III the parry command was tap back? You see an attack, tap back, but a bit early/late. Luckily you safely block the attack. This is how a mediocre game engine would work. In the real SF III you have to make a strategic decision, then physically try to capitalize on it. The player that gets rewarded is the one that sees it coming, reacts, and executes.
It’s really basic, and was written into Street Fighter lore a long time ago-- “You are the Controller, the Controller is the Character”. Fighters, like the martial arts they mimic are a test of strategy and skill. Don’t expect to progress in or even understand fighters if you are not prepared to play both roles.
<3 though
The only problem I have with what you are implying here is that execution doesn’t seem to be part of your definition of skill. Are golf and Bowling artificial games just because they are based all around execution? Because if so I find that to be a ridicolous notion. You don’t think it takes analysis and general intelligence to sharpen your execution methods? To come up with new and improved ways to become more efficient with performing your motions and or sequences in training mode? To come up with better more efficient ways to train altogether? If I am mistaken here please show me exactly how, because right now I feel like you are saying that anyone else who has spent some quality time in training mode analyzing how to improve your hand motions, hand eye coordination and improving your general ability to do things by finding innovative methods and timing mechanisms is dumb and “apparently” not ballsy enough. I guess Tiger Woods is not manly because he plays golf instead of chess and spent years trying to intelligently analyze his swing, deal with elements and angles in the course and perfect his motion through careful observation and analysis of his performances. I guess Jacko Pastorrez is not a genius bass player because he spent possibly thousands of hours practicing how to improve his Bass playing skills instead of playing proffessional rock paper scizzors. Come on now let’s be more reallistic than that. I mean look, I must reiterate that I do think mindgames/strategy should be the absolute number one factor in a fighting game, and I do think excessive emphasis on execution isn’t fun within my set of expectations toward a fighting game, but in the end it’s this blend of those two concepts which makes fighters really interesting, a little execution on the side really spices things up a lot.
I apologize if I what I say here seems offensive, but it’s not intended as such, just expressing myself as accurately as I can.
Edit:
eczangief: I agree 100%, well said. And this goes for any fighters higher up on the execution demands. VF and GG come to mind. These games despite having extremely tough execution, have a tremendous amount of strategic value. I guess it’s as simple as not playing if you do not enjoy having to put some thought into improving your methods of control and perfecting your motions and execution.
Hey ECZangief, are you gonna be at TGA at all this month?
Execution adds balance and variety to a game. Let’s look at Zangief. If his normal throw was an SPD, it would be an extreme advantage. Once 'Gief is within close range, there’s a very high chance you’re going to get grabbed. No longer would the player need .4 seconds to execute the command–it’s instant. It’d be CE Vega all over again, except with an even more damaging throw. A character like that would never be in Smash, where all special moves are done with a direction plus a button.
no doubt some semi-difficult execution still has a place, such as that example (though i’d still advocate looking for simpler ways to achieve the same effect), but often much of it is pretty arbitrary
I’ve actually never been. I’d be up for it though.
I am not saying that execution serves no purpose whatsoever. The purpose it serves is to make Street Fighter an interactive experience. If it were all strategy and no mechanics, it would basically be pen-and-paper style RPG. That said, making the moves harder to do does relatively little for the game compared to crafting a well-balanced strategy game.
By way of an analogy to A.I., there are two ways to make the one-player game difficult: 1. program the A.I. to simulate an intelligent human player with its strategic game and reactive playing, or 2. program it so that its moves do more damage and more hits, and (in the case of charge characters) don’t require any start-up time. Both make the game difficult, but one of them is legitimately satisfying and interesting to play against and the other is just artificial and annoying.
Bowling and golf do not apply here because they are fundamentally different styles of game from Street Fighter. In those games, execution is the point. In Street Fighter, execution is merely the means to an end. It’s a gate you must pass through in order to access your full range of moves.
Polarity- you really need to get into SSVSP or Tenka. That game seems to do what you’re pulling for exactly. Just avoid Gedo or that weird mecha dude in Tenka.
What is best is if there is popular games for each. The problem is, execution games like GG get more play due to execution being easier for the average arcade population then strategy.
The other question that needs to be asked it: at which point does execution turn ponderous? My opinion on the matter: The game I’ve played that is closest to the point between execution and strategy without going overboard: KOF98. (Definitely not 2k2 or XI)
Another game that I think comes close is 3rd. While I dislike 3s, I do respect the game for how it handles execution and makes messing around with the game fun. Garou also handles things well, but has some insane execution on some things.
Honestly, I don’t have a problem with VF’s execution, as it does it right as well, despite being difficult
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Execution in VF tends to be timing and knowledge based- you need to know when you can do the difficult thing to get the full effect
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The actual commands for 99% of the moves in VF are not difficult.
As for the Japanese liking execution better- judging by what they’re putting out lately- who says the Japanese are right? They like freeze-dried cosplayers and maid cafes as well, and that stuff will get you a “NO HOMO” on here stat.
Yeah man definately come down some time, Id suggest ranbats cuz that’s when NYC is down and stuff, I think the next ranbats are in November.
we need both but
seriously, fighting games have to be the genre that less has grown up since its birth
you can’t put that much of an strategy you desire in a fighting game, not yet
I guess this is a bi-annual thread now.
A hadoken is inherently faster executed than a shinkuu.
Fighters have a time limit and aren’t “turn based.”
Should execution be easier? Yes and No.
No, because of the reasons above.
Yes, because difficulty is creating a bigger barrier to break through, to get to the best of what the game has to offer(strategically).
uhm yadda yadda yadda
Someone should tally up how many times this discussion will go around in this loop, until the thread dies down. And then everyone will happily repeat it again 2nd quarter next year.
Mega post.
Amazing post, you said it much better than I ever would. People don’t be put off by the long post, its all spot on.
I think Tekken does a good job of lowering the execution, whilst keepingdepth. So in answer to your questions, no.
Its always good to only read a title and not the thread, just like you judging a book by its cover.
I agree, but I don’t think its right when you may have to practice for unlimited hours just so you can play how you want to play.
Thats why its good to be rewarded for the work you put in, but if execution is the only thing in a game which separates between good and bad players, then you could question the depth of said game. Games where you remove difficult execution, but have depth and balance would still differentiate good and bad players.
While you make some good points, you must remember that there are different levels of execution. You don’t need to be great at performing lots of techniques in a sport like Basketball to play it and have fun. Essentially anyone can play basketball because its a simple game on a base level. You dribble, pass and shoot. Thats why little kids can play it and have a good time.
But with fighting games today which have high execution needs, it stops people even playing just for fun. Thats why lots of casuals gamers generally disregard a fighting game after trying out, they can’t have any fun with it cause they can’t do anything in it. Try giving guilty gear to your 7 year brother or something, and they will lose interest in about 5 minutes.
I didn’t quite say GG is the future of fighting games in that thread. I was saying thats just the current trend at the moment, and i never said i was pleased about it, so please don’t call me a hypocrite. Plus execution if something which affects all fighting games stretching right back to the first fighting games, not just newer games like GG.
Thats why special and super moves have more demanding execution than normal moves, cause they more powerful, it makes no sense to make such powerful accessible by just 1 push of a button like a normal. And on casual gamer level, going from pressing 1 button for a punch, to a qcf+punch for a fireball can be a huge step, but going to say Down then forward (no downforward) might make things a little easier.
Concerning things which need high degrees of execution like combos, kara throws, unblockable setups, etc. This is the sort of thing which limits players to what they can and cannot do. They may know when and where they should be doing certian high level execution techniques, but because they can’t execute they left behind. This is necessarily a bad thing though, as it does help to separate the men from the boys so speak when it comes to higher levels of play.
Hard execution isn’t about rewarding players who put practice in, may be what some people think, but I’m pretty sure the developers put in harder execution to balance moves. And if you removed execution and someone could play like a pro the first time they pick that game up, then theres something seriously wrong with that game.
You say how you can make up for execution with better strategy, thats great, but what do you do when your execution doesn’t allow for you to implement your strategy?
While i like the sound of your last point with entry level and gateway fighting games, no good fighting game really covers this. The games you mentioned, imo aren’t very good gateway fighters at all. 3s has something quite unique, the parry, which changes how you play the game a lot when compared to other 2D fighters. And Smash execution wise is nothing like other fighting games. Hence why alot of people who start off with Smash or 3s as their 1st fighting game have a hard time moving to other fighters. They have to learn or relearn lots of new basic stuff.
Why does everyone have to be at high level? No where does it say you must be able to play Basketball with both hands equally well to go play it. Sure, it may be a must at high level something which is standard, so people have to learn and cope. But with fighting games why make the execution hard straight from the get go.
As far special forces comment goes, do you want fighting games to remain underplayed and unknown? At the end of the day, I don’t want fighting games to remain a niche genre. I don’t want to be playing the same people all the time. And if no leeway if given to help newer and casual gamers to get into fighting games, then I can’t ever see fighting games get anywhere as big as other competitive games.
Theres strategies for everything, even going to the toilet, doesn’t mean taking a shit has good depth. Depth is created by how complex and intricate strategies have to be.
Your right about the no correlation part however, or there shouldn’t be at least. But you’ll often find that fighting games which have low execution needs often are lacking on the depth department too.
Your right, casual gamers don’t need to even know about the and harder execution techniques in a game, but when the “basics” have hard execution then that game is gonna have limited appeal to casual gamers. As already said what can be classed as hard execution is subjective, but some would say doing a simple fireball motion or a simple chain combo counts as hard execution.
Sure they removed the high execution required for special moves in later games, but other high execution heavy techniques have come from it. In SF2 you could say peforming the dragon punch fireball pattern accurately takes good execution, well kara throwing your opponent in 3s successfully takes good execution.
Exactly. And that pretty much sums up the thread for me.
Sorry but thats not a very good analogy. Anyone can go buy a fighting game no matter how good or bad they are at them, no one can just be a doctor (not legally anyway).
Yes we all want better competition, but I want more competition, instead of going to an event where i see the same number of people every time, i want 10 times as much. I want to be able to just stick on a game round a friends house and everyone their can least be confident enough in their own execution to have a go. Having simplier execution will still allow for high level play, but more people will be able to reach what is considered high level. As long as the game is deep and balanced, why would that be a problem?
Also there a difference between laziness and not having the time or skill to get good execution. You make it sound like if execution was simplier every would be just as good as everyone else, doesn’t say much about the games your thinking of in that case.
You missed the point. What he is saying is, that the players he was playing against could have been strategically and tactically quite good, but because of their poor execution in carrying out their strategy and tactics they were easy opponents.
“The person who practices and plays more always has the advantage in any game.”
Why can’t this hold true for fighting games which have simpler execution?
HAHA! Top Tier.
This is probably the most interesting thing you said, so deserves a proper answer.
Some people can perform the most difficult and execution heavy combos in a game, but that doesn’t mean they good at playing fighting games competitively. Time and time again i see players with great execution, who can pull off any combo they want, in practice mode, but as soon as come up against anyone with half decent strategy then they lose. I think this is because so much emphasis is put on execution nowadays, and players watch all these high level japanese videos and basically learn to run before they can walk, copying combos and setups, which are only really effectively when you learn how to implement them first.
Theres no artificial barrier when it when its comes strategy. With executing a move you can either do it or you can’t. Strategy is alot deeper than that.
No one is crying about execution. Most of us here probably have very few problems executing most standard things in fighting games we play. The problem with execution is that it makes getting to the high level alot harder cause we can’t perform our strategies and tactics the way we want cause we don’t have the execution which is necessary. Then an even bigger problem is that execution has gotten to a point where the entry level for new and casual players is set too high, deterring them from the games.
High level play is 99% strategy and 1% execution because high level players have great execution, so it rarely affects the strategies they will use.
So you would rather see matches decided by who can do the hardest combo?
No fighting game puts more emphasis on execution than strategy, and if some do then I certainly haven’t ever played or heard of them cause they are worthless and theres no point in playing them.
The barrier is set too high for casual gamers, thats why most people just never give fighting games a 2nd thought after trying them. I’m not saying high level techniques should be dumbed down so someone right off bat without every doing it can just do them like that, but the basics needs to be easier.
Strategy is the most important thing in any game, if you don’t have strategy or can’t perform your desired strategy then you’ve most likely already lost.
Pretty much any 2D fighter has tight execution. All the way back to SF2, right up to the latest games like Guilty Gear.
Thats from the OP which i wrote,
Gonna assume thats a misquote, but please explain.
???
The 360 motion is in place to balance the move, but thats nothing to do with the execution. Its just the motion you need execute. But performing the 360 is no where near the hardest thing about playing Zangief, its getting into the position and setting up the opponent for a 360 in the first place. And if you manage to that, why should a very hard to execute move stop you from your reward. I’m not saying a 360 should be changed to a 180 or anything like that, but the execution of motion itself could be more forgiving in some. games.
Thats why you don’t get characters like that in smash, its a balance thing, if something that powerful like a a 360 is just assigned to 1 button, then theres issues. for a 360 to work as a 1 button move, then others things would need to be changed about it. No Range and loads of startup would probably be a good place to start.
Would you rather talk about which characters have the best haircut?
As a student of game design and a hopeful fighting game developer (fat chance, companies don’t really dig the idea anymore), I find this thread very intriguing.
My opinion is that Tekken is as close as we’re going to get to an easy to execute fighting game that’s strategy-based. Take that with a grain of salt, too, since multi-throws, the EWGF, and certain juggles are hard as hell and could be made significantly easier. Think about it, though. When was the last time a tekken player needed to do a HCF? What comes to mind right now is Devil Jin’s stupid throw (half the escape window of a normal throw, and a 1+2 break at that), but that could’ve been a simple QCF instead or even a f, f.
The EWGF, by the way, is just stupid. For the uninitiated, the EWGF (electric wind god fist) is a more powerful version of the standard Wind God Fist, executed with a shoryuken motion that has a neutral between the forward and the down. If you press the punch button exactly 1-frame after pressing the down-forward, the punch will be an EWGF instead and be much better, for reasons I won’t bother explaining right now. Suffice it to say, it makes the WGF completely irrelevant and useless in comparison. The point here is that if you want to use a character that can use an EWGF but you can’t do it, then you lose strategic possibility. Also, we should point out that including both the WGF and the EWGF on one character is pointless, and was a terrible decision by the developers of Tekken. If they wanted the WGF to be powered-up, they could’ve easily gotten rid of it and just had the EWGF take its place.
But on the positive side, almost every move in Tekken involves exactly one directional press and 1 or more presses of attack buttons. I don’t know about you, but remembering to hit 2 then 1 then 4 is much easier for me than a complex joystick move and 1 button press.
The underlying concept is that we’re talking about video games, and video games require execution at our current level of technology. I happen to think that Tekken is the simplest fighting game available execution-wise.
japan - if you wanna survive in a world of hardcore game players you better work on your excecution because its REQUIRED for you to master for you to have more control of the game. thats why you’ll find threads discussing this
Strategy - to be honest strategy is the ocean that people take for granted because theyre too busy trying to fit in to a tier list of players who have superior excecution.
execution - iv’e beaten plenty of 3s players by just throwing them and striking and parrying when theyve had superior excecution. its just hillarious see’ing them try to do these big combo’s while im smacking them all over the place, cos of this i dont even need to play the game anymore to give them a good match.
execution is the ground and strategy is the ocean, both are needed and it makes things so fresh how people approach it. im not complaining. maybe our brains just wanna or can only focus on one thing, unless your talented, and when your talented to become the best you need lots of serious experience and lots of time put in training excecution.
it really is as simple as that, theres nothing more to it.
There’s even a good example of this with Potemkin from the GG series. Potemkin Buster is a much easier motion than 360 (hcb, f+p) and served the same function as SPD in older games while actually allowing for lather-rinse-repeat mixup positioning afterwards, so landing one meant you had a pretty decent chance of winning the round – and Potemkin wasn’t even really better than around mid tier until the latest game (which is for reasons that don’t involve the command throw at all).
pbuster has startup and can be backdashed/jumped out of, though, so if we’re talking about ST zangief at least it’s not really comparable. a motion that requires you to jump isn’t just pointlessly difficult execution, it means you can’t just buffer motions and then hit punch if you see them wander into your SPD range on reaction…it’d allow players to get too close to the kind of retarded shit CPU 'gief can do.
Yeah, I guess the fact that you can “buffer” your guess by holding up/back makes it different from SPD. My mistake.
edit: I just now realized I forgot to even reply to repeated SPD motions with the buttonpress entered as soon as the opponent enters throw range (since the motion would no longer require a jump). I don’t know if I’m convinced that this has a ton of real tactical application since reflexes have to be taken into account and an opponent can just as easily bait this by dodging in and then back out of throw range. But you’re right that it’s a possibility that the current command doesn’t allow, so I guess this might be an example of “necessary” difficult execution.