The DHC glitch didn’t make X23 good, she just got lucky on an engine glitch that a huge portion of the cast could abuse. Dante was the real top tier character that made up the difference.
CSxxTA is a huge change for her. I think ult. X23 is way better.
So, I haven’t been here in a while and I won’t lie, I did not fully read all 34 posts that I missed but here are some thoughts that remained after reading everything:
1. RR is not “low tier”. Maybe the PEOPLE WE HAVE SEEN USING HIM are, but RR is disgusting in the hands of a RR player and not a Log Trap player.
2. Buff x23’s health to 900. Add some more hitstun to her moves so her combos aren’t as ridiculous. Fix her hitboxes. She is one of those really fair yet powerful characters that are out shined by the bullshit in this game…once other characters are nerfed/buffed, she will be a lot more respected/viable I guess.
3. *Please keep in mind, I already admitted I did not thoroughly read the last 34 posts * The overall problem people have with constructing x23 teams is the fact that they want all her strengths to be maximized and in return, they lose TEAM SYNERGY and just have a strong x23 team.
x23 can easily be a serious threat if you accept the fact that at least 1 slot has to be given to a good character and/or assist. You can’t have a team that has/will:
-Extend Combos (A1)
-Optimize Combos (A2)
-Horizontal Coverage (B)
-Good Neutral ©
-TAC (D)
-Ridiculous Incoming (E)
-Good DHC (F)
-AND level 3 set ups (G)
-On top of that, other 2 characters work well together (H)
You just can’t. Yeah, some characters might compensate for like 3 areas at a time…but then you gotta remember you have to accept the fact that the characters have to work well with each other and the anchor might not be the the best character (or maybe in return for a good anchor, you lose another aspect of her game). I think other people addressed the fact that x23 teams have to be built around her so that is why they’re weak. This isn’t 100% true but I can agree with the angle they are coming from. The problem lies within losing H trying to get as many of A-G as possible when a team would be just as, if not more, powerful with H guaranteed and less of A-G * Side note: Also remember, there are a lot of characters that shoot up the tier list when paired with certain assists OR left with lvl3 XF*
As a Nova player for example, I have 1 of 2 options: Optimize damage and lose really solid mixups or Optimize mixups and lose damage. I chose the former. To compensate for that, I have to find ways to adjust and make up for my poor mix up possibilities. Now, can I put together the elements (characters/assists) that make his damage AND mixups good? Yeah. EASY…I can play Nova Spencer Ammy. Best assist to maximize damage and best assist to lock down, but then I lose horizontal coverage and overall synergy. Or, I could play Nova Spencer Sentinel. Drones kind of make up for horizontal coverage AND lock down…but the horizontal game isn’t as powerful as like…arrows or beams PLUS, I have to play anchor Sentinel. See what I mean? NSS is very powerful, but SOMETHING has to be lost.
Overall, what I’m saying is good, effective, and threatening x23 teams can easily be made especially considering the characters that work well with her (there are probably more but I think these are fine):
-Dr. Doom (Plasma Beam/Hidden Missiles/“Rocks”) Note: I don’t know how to use Rocks so if you do, feel free to keep that in mind. If not, disregard it)
-Iron Man (Unibeam/Repulsor Blast)
-RR (“Log Trap”)
-Akuma (“Tatsu”)
-Dante (Jam Session/Weasel Shot)
-Wesker (Samurai Edge)
-Magneto (Hyper Grav)
-Nova (M Centurian Rush)
-Sentinel (“Drones”/Rocket Punch)
-Super Skrull (Tenderizer)
In this spoiler is a break down of the team possibilities.
(The letters below refer to the letters above)
x23, Doom (Beam)/Iron Man (Beam), RR (Log Trap)
Strong: B, C, D, and F
Weak: A1, A2, and E.
No: G.
H: Doom has RR to help space control and if a raw Log Trap hits, Doom can confirm damn near anything anyway. RR can also help out Iron Man with space control but converts might be a little weaker. RR also should help out Doom/Iron Man with extension. RR with lvl3 XF is OD
Something as subtle as giving Doom Hidden Missiles or giving Iron Man Repulsor Blast might help mixups or incoming but there goes her neutral/horiztonal coverage which I believe are a little more important.
x33, Dante (Jam Session), Doom (Beam)/Iron Man (Beam)
Strong: B, C, E, G
Weak: A1, A2, D (technically since the TAC character is in the back, you would have to TAC after getting a touch from Jam Session which is situational)
H: Dante with 1 of the 2 beams are a similar case of the “equivalent exchange” kind of concept I have been talking about. They give him realllllyy good lockdown to set up his mixups, and access to TAC for free…but if those assists touch, his combos scale to hell. Iron Man could give him a stronger DHC than Doom but Doom might be considered the overall better or easier character. See what I mean?
You all can see where I’m going with this so here are other options and you can kind of see what the strengths/weaknesses are on your own. I’m only putting the shell that will follow x23 to help keep H (synergy of the other 2 characters) in mind. Also, pay close attention to the drastic change in game play that come with subtle changes like team order or assist.
Doom (Missiles), Iron Man (Unibeam)
Doom (Beam), RR (Log Trap)
Doom (Missiles), RR (Log Trap)
Doom (Beam), Akuma (Tatsu)
Doom (Beam), Sentinel (Drones)
Doom (Beam), Skrull (Tenderizer)
Iron Man (Repulsor), Doom (Beam)
Iron Man (Unieam), RR (Log Trap)
Iron Man (Repulsor), RR (Log Trap)
Iron Man (Unibeam), Akuma (Tatsu)
Iron Man (Repulsor), Sentinel (Drones)
Iron Man (Unibeam), Skrull (Tenderizer)
*To be VERY honest, I have NO idea how Akuma does with assists. This is the only one I think makes sense for Akuma support. Anything else I think works better with Akuma in the back.
Akuma (Tatsu), Sentinel (Drones)
Dante (Jam Session), Doom (Beam)
Dante (Jam Session), Iron Man (Beam)
Dante (Jam Session), Akuma (Tatsu)
*note: These teams are more so to be played with the intention/possibility of putting Wesker in when x23 dies or having Wesker for the lvl 3 come back. The characters in front are there for DHC. These are the x23 equivalents of my team: Point, Horizonal Support, Combo Extension/Anchor and when the point character dies, play the anchor with the assist.
Iron Man (Unibeam), Wesker (Samurai Edge)
Doom (Beam), Wesker (Samurai Edge)
Akuma (Tatsu), Wesker (Samurai Edge)
Sentinel (Drones), Wesker (Samurai Edge)
*note: I honestly think Magneto would cripple x23’s overall game play from A-G and is probably only STRONG in the areas of D and H but if someone INSISTS on playing him. Also, these teams are like the Wesker teams where you want to get Magneto in when x23 dies. The DHC to Magneto is pretty weak IMO
Doom (Beam/Missiles), Magneto (Hyper Grav) *note: this is REALLY tricky because Magneto players switch Doom assists depending on match ups. The assist x23 might need could compromise what Magneto needs
Iron Man (Unibeam), Magneto (Hyper Grav)
Sentinel (Drones), Magneto (Hyper Grav)
Nova (Centurian Rush), Doom (Beam)
Nova (Centurian Rush), Iron Man (Unibeam)
Nova (Centurian Rush), Sentinel (Drones)
Skrull (Tenderizer), Doom (Beam)
Skrull (Tenderizer), Iron Man (Unibeam)
Skrull (Tenderizer), Sentinel (Drones)
With these teams, NONE of them fully strengthen x23’s options from A to G. However, what makes them viable is the construction of the shells behind x23. If you feel like you just want to kill and get in, maybe you want to use one of the Wesker or Nova teams or one of the DHC based teams. If you want TAC’s you might go for the Iron Man, Nova, or Doom teams. If you want incoming mixups and lvl 3 set ups, you would go for a Dante team. You have to be able to decide which aspect of x23’s game you want to exploit and build the team around THAT rather than building a team around all of x23’s strengths. Doing THAT is what puts you in the “DAMN IT, this team is no good once x23 dies” position. If you really think about it and just look at these 2 character shells, they are not as bad as you might have originally thought while considering their construction around x23. Then you throw x23 into the picture and can see “well, these 2 make her ______, ______, and _____ options good so let me build my game plan around that.” Also, the characters I used are obviously not your ONLY options but those are the ones that immediately came to mind. I hope this doesn’t just come off as me babbling about stuff and actually sheds a bit of light/opens some eyes/gets people thinking.
over at the neogaf forums theres a discussion going on about potential buffs/nerfs to characters. Heres what they have on X23:
X-23:
*Angle Slice charged version startup time reduced to 30 frames and allows for a s.L link afterward; cannot be canceled into Weapon X Prime; non-charged version now OTGs with minimal hitstun (can connect Rage Trigger); assist version comes out in 35 frames.
*Rage Trigger now causes a soft knockdown.
*Weapon X Prime causes a hard knockdown.
*Slight hitstun increase on aerial normals.
*Untechable time after air and ground throws increased.
*M/H Talon cancelable into Talon L. If canceled through other Talons it causes a hard knockdown, other wise it stays as it is (ie. doing Talon L after Crescent Scythe is the same as it is now)
*Health changed to 900,000.
*X-23 is considered airborne for all frames of her Mirage Feint moves.
*Talon Attack M hitstun increased.
*j.M hitbox increased slightly.
Assists: Crescent Scythe H, Ankle Slice, Neck Slice (Charged)
I like these changes. especially the canceling of Talon L from the M/H. Crescent Scythe H as an anti-air > Talon M/H > Talon L > Ankle Slice > LMHS or assist extended if the hitstun prevents L from linking. Also easy superjump hitconfirm.
those do sound nice.
Why are the Neogaf people not just playing Wolverine?
“Make TA L divekick” Why not just ask for TA L to ground bounce and charge NS to wall bounce while we’re asking for stuff that’s never going to happen? (Honestly wallbounce NS would be pretty ballin’, lol.)
“Make RT Fatal Claw except let her get into it assistless”
“Give her Wolvie throws (and make it where she doesn’t need an assist while we’re at it)” Instead of just the throw options she gets from the three most likely situations (corner ground back, sj corner forward, jump forward) with the 4th one being covered by assists…(midscreen ground.)
“Make AS Wolvie slide but better”
Almost all of those changes stink of people not using the toolset she has now. 
Don’t try to turn a cool character that takes skill to play into wolverine just because you suck. I can understand people wanting more SJ control, but balance-wise it’s not fair for her to have that on top of what she has now. Wolvie gets dive kick and IOHs, X23 gets unblockables. I feel like we got the better deal here.
I still honestly feel that any patch that removes infinites it going to kill her end-game viability unless they make her pants-on-head wolverine level retarded, and that’s not going to happen.
If you’re running that team, you should run DapVip’s team and put Dante first since he can reliably TAC past X23. Those characters give dante pretty much everything he needs. The only flaw in that team for me is that you don’t have a post-dirt nap pickup and X23 becomes a liability once Dante dies (Both X23 and IM need XF to be a threat at that point, X23 has no dirt nap guarantee.) Otherwise the synergy is pretty much flawless. (Is there a match practical way to TAC past-JS without doing a ridiculously short combo?)
X23(CS)/IM(RB)/RR(Log) covers every point you made:
I also think you should add an (I) for covers bad matchups, too. Which IM/RR do amazingly well being one of the better zoning pairs in the game.
-Extend Combos (A1): Both assists pick up off throws, Log picks up off grounded midscreen dirtnaps (which RB will give you for free off any touch), corner ground back throws, converts off neutral CS H into full combo, works on HBDs and any level of hitstun. You can have RB take people out of corners or leave them in (Log gives you a free Charged NS if you extend midscreen.)
-Optimize Combos (A2): Thor TOD starting from one meter from a clean hit. 950k starting from RB with DCH, 1mil starting from Log with DHC.
-Horizontal Coverage (B): Log is one of the best neutral/horizontal coverage assists in the game for any character with long range normals that don’t normally convert (IM’s RB/UB in neutral) or characters with great air mobility/fast ground mixups. Hands down/bar none. 10 durability points/tiny hurtbox on the assist/hits 3/4ths of the screen/gives you aerial coverage/etc/etc/etc. It generates salt by the ton.
-Good Neutral ©: X23 always has a safe place to land thanks to Log’s spacing/timing (plus Log can almost always be safely off the screen), you can get free dH crossup/fuzzies/easy to convert IOH attempts on any touch with RB, you get her Log air mixup game (which I think is unique to Log and one of the strongest/safest mixup tools in the game), you don’t have to bulldog your rushdown like you do with beams since both assists will let her convert from almost any range on hit, you get access to CS H as a neutral tool into full conversion thanks to Log (converts on hit, makes escape options safe on block, another huge +++ IMO). The ONLY thing this team doesn’t give her is pick ups off midscreen ground throws. X23 can play from any position on this team thanks to CS (also covers her issue of not having a safe DHC to get in.)
XF3 RR and IM are both really good. RR kills 95% of the cast off any hit and gets some of the best incoming setups in the game afterwards. Safe blockstrings that end in mixups/extended pressure. Both characters get Solo conversion off any option.
-TAC (D) - IM midscreen and corner (plus there’s a slim chance of there being a way to set up jump loop infinites with RR TACing into X23 and using a boulder Trap to OTG into the loops. I didn’t need it for my team so I didn’t spend much time looking into it.) Log is one of the few assists that lets X23 corner carry full screen without blowing her TAC option due to hitstun.
-Ridiculous Incoming (E) - Guarantee dirt naps, guard break OS into lockdown (into hi/low/throw/left/right mixup pressure), ambiguious meaty log crossup incoming setups, dash under retardedness thanks to RBs broken hit string, Log acts as a backup dirt nap guarantee if necc.
-Good DHC (F) - PC does 250k+ on DHC. One of the best DHCs in the game since it’s so many hits. RT > PC > RnR // PC > WXP // WXP > Mad Hopper > hard tag back to X23 > Full combo // RT > both IM and RR’s level 3s // RT > MH(xN) // RT > MH > RnR > WXP // RnR > whiff WXP > combo // RnR, MH, PC > Dirt Nap.
-AND level 3 set ups (G) - neutral dirt nap lockdown + conversion, guaranteed incoming, full double dirt nap.
-On top of that, other 2 characters work well together (H) - RR has hard tag setups into combo with IM, gets even harder to escape incoming setups thanks to RB guarantee, gets unblockable resets with RB with the only weakness being a sub-par conversion if they just eat the RB (unless you’re willing to spend a bar for MH, maybe…have to check that now that I’m typing this.)
IM+Log is some of the best defensive neutral in the game and is an amazing counter-zoner (only really has issues with Zero zoning, AV Morridoom.) He gets literally some of the best conversions in the game because of it, gets his optimal damage combos, and destroys a whole lot of derp and has great matchups against a lot of top tier shells. Ex: Doom/Vergil (Doom has no options against IM + Log and Vergil has no options against MH + RB incoming setups.) Mags+Missile (RB negates missiles so mags can’t abuse the lockdown, IM is one of the few characters that can go air to air with mags thanks to better range.)
If you want to run UB and Log (which Log still gives you great incoming mixups and can work as a dirt nap guarantee, though it’s tight timing-wise and you don’t have a post dirt-nap pickup) put RR 2nd or on point. His mixup game with a beam is probably the best in the game. You sacrifice the max damage DHC having him 2nd, but I guarantee you he has a practically free reset unblockable backed with UB after RT > Mad hopper into the corner (check out SolidPlay’s RR/Doom Beam setups for proof of concept.) Might be able to play point RR and do a nice DHC built around corner combo > Mad Hopper > WXP before they hit the trap > late combo extension with X23 + log.
RT causing a soft knockdown is interesting, it would probably open the doors to a lot more potential DHC candidates.
In terms of dmg output, ult. X23 is undoubtedly better I might add.
People should just focus on learning and doing as well as the can with the characters they have now. Some will always be better, some will always be worse, but when characters like phoenix wright can beat some of the best players in the world, I d say you have a pretty well balanced game.
I feel like, if you stop looking at it like “this is what I personally would like for my character to have so that I can win with them” and start looking at things like " this is what the character should have in order to be more normalized compared to the rest of the cast." you would have a different opinion on what you would like to change about her in the game.
I admit that initially, i came in here thinking that she should have more time to convert off of ground throws. but then somebody posted that she has a full screen command grab thats almost impossible to see because it looks just like 2 of her other moves. I honestly cant think of anybody that has a command grab AND can get full combos off their normal throws, without x factor or a very specific assist set up.
The only thing I feel like she needs to better fit with the rest of the cast is bigger hitboxs on her air normals, and to get the same 3 air actions that everyone else gets.
also, Did anybody here know that you can link a Snapback after WXP? I just randomly thought of it and tried it today and it worked. Mostly. it doesnt work on hsien ko for some reason so I assume theres a few more. but it definitely seems to work on more characters than not.
I definitely hear where you’re coming from but just to address the part about characters that can combo off normal grab AND command grab: Thor, Sentinel, She Hulk, Skrull, Nemesis, Morrigan, and Spencer (Haggar, Tron, and Felicia too I THINK). Although I believe some can only get 1 move into super or just super they can still get SOME KIND OF DAMAGE off of AT LEAST ONE of their normal grabs. I know FOR A FACT though that Thor can get combos off both kinds of grabs, She Hulk can do her slide cancel stuff, and Spencer can combo off of every grab he has except back throw I believe.
So…there is no reason for anyone to really get hit by decap. slice. Chicken blocking answers all three of those options with no downside…
When we looking into WXP > Snap, it seemed to be character specific. If you have Rocket Raccoon behind her WXP > Mad Hopper > Hard tag X23 > full combo works though.
She gets the same three air options except for TA, You can CSxxTA M/HxxCS, you’ll just drop like a rock and get fucked.
No different than Strange doing EoA in the air.
Also…I’m going to do a video of X23 comboing off her ground grab midscreen and corner so we can stop saying she can’t combo off it…
Can someone tell me how wolvie combos off anything but his grounded back throw in the corner? He needs a buff. No fair that so many characters can combo off throws and he can’t except in one situation.
Quick edit for being a dick: Sorry, just tired of hearing that one complaint, too.
Look, I assume we’re all aware that if you call certain assists preemptively, then get a ground throw, you can combo. That’s all well and good, but if you have an assist that can do that, you’re basically making a uni-tasker of assist, which is NOT good team building. Also, good luck getting in range for a midscreen ground throw without an assist to cover your approach - it might happen once in a while, but you’re not going to be able to incorporate that into your regular gameplan. A practical application for an assist pickup after a grounded throw should let you call the assist AFTER the throw.
Not only that, the assists necessary for a preemptive call + ground throw tend to be attached to a handful of not-so-useful characters. We can argue all day about the viability of “low-tier” characters, so whatever. The main point is that there’s only a handful, while the top-tier ground based characters can use dozens (and call the assist after the throw!), or combo solo.
Here’s what Wolverine gets to do:
I want characters in this game to be unique, but also more or less on the same level. I want the game to be balanced! So I want X23 to be buffed to the same level as other characters. I would also be okay with the top tier being nerfed to X23s level, but that’s not as fun.
I haven’t seen anyone else excited about the corner ground back throw otg + assist. That’s a situation that she ends up in all the time. This should work with any assist that hits decently far out and works with OTG+ assist relaunches.
Honestly, You don’t need an assist to dash in and c.M, the tick throw midscreen setups are practical. Missiles is the best one that I remember but I haven’t looked into many others. X23’s block strings are good enough that you can use one assist to get in any block string MFC’d tick throw >buffer a CS into the throw to beat out post tech options and continue pressure with your slow assist/get a free cross up mixup with the assist. If you’re running something like EoA you get a free fuzzy mixup after the throw. After that string your other assist should be close to back up, too. She has reliable access to the same tools everyone else does, it’s just isn’t the same kind of brainless stuff Wolvie gets.
That’s an opening mixup, a frametrap, a throw, a tech mash punish, followup pressure/fuzzies all back to back in one string.
The corner ground backthrow is good, but I haven’t been able to get anything off of it other than solo ankle slice. Even then, it’s a tight link, is there a trick to it?
As for midscreen, any normal worth MFC-ing is a free pushblock, after which you lose your throw pressure. There’s no reason any player worth their salt should ever get thrown by X23 assistless (unless you’re playing online, on Ms and Hs magically become impossible to pushblock reactively).
For the sake of argument, post-tech CS +slow assist loses hard to Throw/backdash OS. Reacting to the tech, then st.M is just as good of an option and safer.
Corner is a link, but it’s not terrible. Keep in mind I play on hitbox, but I hold down during the animation then roughly halfway through the jump animation input df+log f+m. The game let’s you buffer the assist early, but you to do it before the F+m and timing wise, I don’t think you can do -assist>214m.
I like cs against people that mash tech and turtles, CSxxta l/m is more ambiguous than doing a mf m and it gets you off the same attack vector as your assist.
Of course your mfc is going to get pushblocked, there’s always time to dash forward into poke or you can mix up your mfc timing to bait a bad block. Wonder if there’s any situation where you can use mfc pushblock like an air guard break with good plink/throw os…
Jaytoo, pushblock is dies if another hit is registered on the opponent’s guard. I use as an anti push block string s.M to c.M as fast as possible into MFc. If they pushblock, usually one of the other hits will register and I can dash back in positive. The way to get out of that is to mash pushblock. If they mash pushblock, you can MF-M into TA-M to ignore the second pushblock while positive giving you a chance for a high/low mix up. It’s hard but can be done (THIS IS NOT THEORY FIGHTER) I have done this purposefully, but its hard and very reaction (or prediction) heavy which sucks cuz I’m old and don’t have reaction speed.
Some things to note: I don’t think it is solid… I think it is like when you talon dive and they pushblock but you go nowhere sometimes and you go full screen other times. Also, I think that it might be character specific, maybe heavy characters don’t move far back during pushblock or fatties have so much hitbox that you can hit them while being pushblocked. I’m not sure, I can’t figure out why or how it works… I just know that it does…
Just getting back home from TFC. Wandles and I both made it to winner’s finals in our pools but lost to Chris G and Flocker, respectively. Wandles lost to PZPoy and I lost to an SC zero player named andogar in losers. (Both of whom we put into losers in the first place.)
Finally got to play some matches against Felax (let’s go X23 army) and got a double dirt nap against Marvelo on 645’s salty suite stream. (Lost aside from that, tho.)
Had a bad set against a player that presses a ton of great buttons and lost a set but managed to adapt my game plan and run him 2-6 the next set. (Against a Spencert/PW/Akuma player late on Saturdays 645 stream.)
Still a really solid weekend and a good swan song for my team. Gonna start working on Dante/mags/X23 this week.
No footage?
Anyway, congrats on making winners finals against two of the best players in the game right now.
Wandles’ match was on stream and I was on deck to go on stream but they were so backlogged and my match was bottom of the list so we got bounced back off.
My match wasn’t amazing, my team/I have a hard time opening up people that play lame and safe. I think I beat zero once and lost to xf and the other 2 matches zero got the first hit and I only blocked 2 of the 6 incoming mixups.
We got to go on stream for the team tourney and got DESTROYED (Friday, look for team marq +1). I tried to tech a start of match throw against hulk (mistake 1, almost always better to eat the throw unless they have some wacky ground throw pickup assist like stone smite) IM got a s.H instead and got hit but lived with a magic pixel, hard tagged like an idiot, got xf’d, IM died to chip on incoming, RR died to mixup…
Worst freaking match I’ve ever played it was single match/single elim until top 4.
Once 645 gets stream matches posted out I have a chance to go through and watch them I’ll link them up here.
Congratulations on making top 8, Jayto!!!
About time. 
Not even gonna mention that missed dirt nap. 
Good shit Jayto! If you get to play Ranmasama keep in mind he knows the matchup!
Thanks gaiz, this was a ridiculous tournament for me. Lost to Danny Nguyen, beat Justin Wong (footage later), then vs. joker last match of the night. Ironically, the joker match might’ve been my cleanest match.
As for playing Ranma, I’m sharing the hotel room with him, lol. More worried about fchamp, probably gonna go point x23 again, since he beat my point Vergil clean yesterday.