The thing is they know about GGPO (and as you say, knew about it before SF4 and still didn’t use it). Not only that, there have been a ton of requests both for MvC3 and for SF4 to have them use it, and for 3 they’re mum, and for 4 they declined.
As JSD said nothing ventured nothing gained, but don’t expect them to listen to us on this, if they’re going to they already have (if that makes sense :p) On the other hand, it would be really funny if ggpo-based code was the ‘big surprise’ for online that Niitsuma was talking about
Netcode is almost certainly set in stone by now, there’s a small chance that online modes and features aren’t.
GGPO uses a peer-to-peer topology to run a complete copy of your game for each player, transmitting controller inputs over the network to keep these copies in sync. Each player’s inputs are sent to their copy of the game without having to wait for their opponent’s to arrive over the network.
If the simulations diverge, GGPO rolls back to the most recent accurate state, corrects the mistake, and jumps back to the current frame, all before the player can notice. This provides the illusion of lag-free gameplay.
so w\o actually having any kind of technical degree, i’m going to make an inference on how ssf4 works.
Each player’s inputs are sent to their copy of the game without having to wait for their opponent’s to arrive over the network. This is how ggpo works. What I’m thinking is that ssf4 doesn’t send the inputs to the users machine first. By not doing so, you induce input lag. ssf4 feels like its anywhere from 5-15 frames off depending on the connection. How bad is really 5 frames though? Say you need to srk someon 10 frames off the ground with ryu to make sure wins 99% of the time for AA. To play online and still hit the 10 frames off the ground AA, you actually have to input the entire srk motion on frame 15. Using this timing offline will surely get you hit easily. It affects everything, you have to 5-15 frames faster to punish normals, 5-15 frames to tech a throw, how the fuck are you gonna stay 15 frames ahead for link timing and expect to use the same timing offline?
by sending inputs to your machine first, as ggpo does, your timing is roughly 95-100% the same when you jump offline.
don’t get me wrong, ggpo does have its flaws but I’d rather be playing on a ggpo style netcode where my online practice will transition to my offline game. Input delay teaches you nothing and it actually heavily affects how the game can be played and still won.
^Nice breakdown, Shoultz. Thanks. Never been familar with GGPO. I just don’t see why Capcom would go backwards (Street Fighter 4) with netcode instead of forward. Oh, well. It would be nice if Capcom decided to implement GGPO netcode. We’ll see.
5frames is fairly close to a green bar connection, I suspect thats what the input delay is judging by how well japan does combo’s online when the bar is green.
However here in the states, its not 5 frames of input delay, probably closer to 10-15. Lets say that perfect srk range is 10 frames off the ground and the input delay is 15frames. Online to properly land that 10 frame height, you now have to input the srk on frame 25. 1.5x earlier than you would offline, almost double.
input delay just fucks the game up for ANY player who knows the differences. I remember playing cvs2 in 01-02 @ the same time as being on a amateur CAL team for cs 1.6. Even back then, companies were experiencing with forms of rollbacks to prevent input lag. Here we are in basically 2011 and it looks like capcom is about the same place with their netcode as they were with cvs2.
Yeah I know they listen to us sometimes. I just think they have long made up their mind about this one way or the other. However it certainly can’t hurt so keep asking. If MvC2 used GGPO then I think its likely MvC3 will honestly.
As for the whole ‘will they listen to us’ question, it’s pretty simple; if we don’t at least try to make our opinions heard then we can’t really complain if companies keep giving us bog standard online. Like Jet said, it can’t hurt to try.
If I had to guess? SF4’s netcode is adequate for play in Japan, and is probably cheaper than GGPO, there’s no other reason I can come up with at least.
They’ve said that it’d be too memory intensive and they’d have to significantly alter the design of SF4, but that doesn’t seem to make much sense… since the amount of data a rollback code needs to remember, while several times larger than what a more basic netcode keeps track of, is insanely trivial.
Their already working on the memory by making the game play in 720p instead of 1080p. But, my complaint is how elaborate the stages are. Which they’re gonna cause lag like alpha 2 and sf4.
Yeah. This is about what we want in online play. Netcode is obvious but still it is very necessary to mention it.
Online practice mode would be really dope. Its good that i can just send my friend an invite so I can learn some CapAm or random character. Good suggestion guys.
Im going into journalism for college and it would be good practice for me, but I am in deepshit again and I gotta do ALOT of research for class tonight so i could do it later… like tomorrow… sigh. Fuck school. I guess Imma go to the xbox forum and get as many responses as possible.
In fairness to Capcom and speaking as someone who makes games my first reation on reading how GGPO works was one of sympathy. Asking a game like SFIV to do all of that in one frame isn’t impossible but it’s definately something you’d have to design for from the very start of production. It’s important to remember that SFIV is already straining the 360 to near it’s limits just to run at 60FPS in offline play.
If the most recent accurate state was 10 frames ago then you’re going to have to step the simulation back to that state and then step it forward again ten times. This in a game that’s already struggling to update itself once per frame.
Now this is do-able but you’re going to have had to design a system where the fundemental gameplay (i.e. the hitboxes) is very strongly decoupled from the rest of your update.
I don’t want it to seem like I’m defending the current net code or apologising for Capcom but I do think it’s important that we understand they’re not just bullshitting us. When they say it’d be more difficult to do a roll-back style lag solution than an input delay solution they’re probably telling the truth. It’s clear, for example, that they couldn’t have changed the net code from SFIV for SSFIV. That would’ve just been to large a task.
For an entirely new game though they should be able to use GGPO or at least develop their own solution that works on the similar priciples. If they’re not using it in MvC3 by now then it’s too late to make the change but there’s no reason why they couldn’t add it for whatever’s next (no idea how far along they are with SFxT).
