I don’t get what C-groove offers. I’d have to say A and K are probably better because they make use of the meter (k also has JD and uses rage mode to boost his normals)
if that’s the case my argument loses, cuz i’ll never learn to play all the low tier to their fullest.
i don’t this his rage mode last long enough to be of any use. like people change their game when you get raged, if you suddenly try to get in to land supers, you won’t. if you try to throw out more normals to crush gaurd, you’ll get supered/dp for being so predictable. i think he’s just better when you get all the time you need to sit on bar. and poke.
EDIT:
actually, how would we know that if the other low tiers, played to their fullest potential, would be better than A-haoh.
we dont’ really have any proof for this. most of the tier ranks are based on tourney results. we can’t really use the same reasoning for low tiers since no one ever uses low tier teams and gives good enough results to compare with.
an example why this may not work. popoblo and i were talking about blanka groove ranked. on paper we decided that N-blanka was the best cuz he had the most options and what not, but for some reason A-blanka is really good and that’s mainly due to the fact that blanka can pull damage out way easier with CC than trying to land it otherwise.
same concept goes with the haoh discussion, but we dont’ have any tourney results to prove any of this. fullest potential or not, all the matters is if the character is can do it’s job in a real match. shouldn’t the “EASE” of a character’s usage also be taken into account for their rank?
Depends on how you look at it. “Tier Rankings” should always be done in a vacuum, in that you look at the character played to their fullest potential. Whether or not you can easily do something like dash up RC legs, link into jab-strong, lvl2, cancel into another RC legs, repeat with lvl 1 is irrelevant. Someone else can do it relatively easily (Mago gets it on me all the time :xeye: ). Looking at it this way, Haoh doesn’t belong anywhere near the top, or near the middle, really. He has some annoying pokes, but can’t do anything to mix up or take advantage of those pokes. Unlike Vega and Cammy, who are both straightforward poke characters but can also combo into their supers/CCs in addition to having air throws, Haoh’s game is severely lacking.
how does vega combo into super/cc?
anyways, i guess i’d have to take you guy’s word for it…for now…
until i get a chance to test haoh against more people.
i’d still at least put him near the lower section of mid tier at least, since his pokes are annoying and for a LOT of characters it’d be hard to get in on haoh or even get through his ground game. i’m sure most of the top tier can rape him, but his pokes are good enough to take on most of the mid/lower tiers…plus CC activate can boost up his win % as well.
okay…so do you guys base your tier rank on how well they can do against every character? or just the top tiers or the commonly played ones?
For the claw super, Mago combos it from a c.short to s.short link(?). A-Vega basically gets a free CC from any jump-in roundhouse - which makes it easier to land than his supers, which either require the opponent to be standing or for you to be close enough to do some moves and still be in range after you’ve charged long enough for the super and/or to not have your claw (at that point I think he can chain c.jabs, but I forget)
hmm…
this is just concerning vega(totally unrelated to the haoh discussion).
based the kinha(spelling?) vids, i never saw vega once do j.rh, hit confirm–> activate
nor have i see ricky (in all the vids available to me) do it once as well.
most of the time, they whiff something safe(like rc jab roll) and activate or something stupidly good like that.
just an observation(hoping you have feedback to what i said)
Off a connected jump-in roundhouse is the absolute BEST way to COMBO into the CC (dizzying them doesn’t count as a “combo” to me). Other than that, you have to wait for whiffs and CC to punish. Setting up a counter and activating is not as good because you are depending on them to do that counter, and the activation is usually done in anticipation rather than reaction. It’s not that “stupidly good.”
I don’t know why you’ve never seen it done before. Perhaps in most situations, they choose to save the meter for the next character. Vega does not need to use the meter to be effective, it is only another option. Whether or not you choose to activate depends on many factors - the opponent’s remaining life, remaining time, your own remaining life, the next character on your team, whether the opponent is raged or charged for a super, etc. If the next character on your team is Sakura, your Vega is almost dead, and time is running out, you shouldn’t activate. However, after a jump-in roundhouse (hitting deep enough), activating results in a GUARANTEED custom combo, so in that sense it’s low-risk. If you land a jump-in roundhouse on a fully-charged A-Bison with less than 25% life, I’d say it’s worth it to use that meter even if Sakura is next on your team.
okay well, in many situations, i’d still call it “stupidly good” because, for those who’s played enough and can anticipate what their opponent is going to do, there’s a good chance(i want to estimate around 70% but this is just my ass guessing) that their opponent will fall for it.
however i know what you’re referring to, simple dash in randomly and throw/activate is not what i’m referring to. that’s just plain guessing.(50/50 isn’t bad i guess). anyways this doesn’t really matter much. just wanted to voice my opinion about the “random” cc activates
eh, it’s probably cuz i never seen anyone get hit by j.rh when vega has full bar. i dunno. just the vids i see.(yes all this is based on vids, because i haven’t had much personal experience with A-vega)
okay, well with this part of your post, i wanna bring back the haoh discussion. you say that vega doesn’t NEED to use his bar since his cc isn’t all that damaging and the chance to land it isn’t as often as other characters. but the reason why vega is good is cuz he’s a good battery, can be played without bar, and has stored bar as an extra option…
so…
doesn’t the same kind of apply to haoh? most of haoh’s game is based on pokes as well, granted he can’t mixup as well as vega cuz he lacks the speed and [slight] range…it doens’t mean he can’t keep his opponent out with pokes(building bar in the procesS). i’m almost certain that haoh can at least build a full bar against most characters with his pokes alone(mainly referring to s.strong and c.jab). if for some reason he doesn’t manage to do enough damage with pokes alone, he still has his CC to fall back on.
like your example of “vega being low on health and his next character is sak/bison or whatever, then dont’ use the bar unless you get a guarantee cc” well somewhat the same for haoh, low on life? save the bar then.
and like buktooth mentioned, he has an AA custom so if they every jump(for wahtever reason) guarantee custom(except for P and K groove of course).
or…
see a whiff, activate, s.strong --> rest of the cc.(i haven’t really made much use of this myself but i’m assuming we’re talking about haoh at his max potential so it’s doable and he can rely on that somewhat).
so in short…
1)annoying pokes(c.jab, s.strong, j.strong)
2)RC dp
3)semi safe overhead(-6 dont’ abuse i guess)
4)fast dash
5)decent CC, 7k? + AA custom
6)good batteries
7)whiff punishing CC
i fail to see how A-haoh is 2nd to last on buk’s list. yes he’s easy to play to his fullest potential, but we’re talking about his fullest potential and he SHOULD be able to hold his own against most characters(especially on point so he doesn’t have to deal with characters with bar right away).
this isn’t as general but i wanted to see what you guys say
ryu(whatever his best groove is) vs. A-haoh: unless it’s like K-ryu, i think A-haoh can take on ryu easily, bait some dps with his annoying pokes and keep him out. what can ryu do?
some more mid tier characters:
N-vice vs A-haoh: who would you give it to? it’s not like A-haoh doesn’t have any tools to beat N-vice.
just for the hell of it:
what about the lower tiers vs haoh?
i’m almost certain haoh rapes them for free. i dunno give me your opinion
Vega gets jump RH into CC so much.Ricky does that shit all the time…why not its free as they come.
Hoah= Not safe overhead
-wack custom sutups
-no mind games
-RC DP is a joke
-antiairs suck
-in close game sucks
-can’t really punish pokes
well there you go. it’s just like the endless guile debate that used to come up every month on srk: people only see the random scrub guiles in their area or look at stuff on vids, then say he sucks. then they eventually play jchoi and get ocved.
vega’s the same way: nothing flashy or anything, just a stupidly good ground game. his ground is SO good that it almost makes up him never doing big damage.
anyway, vega’s ground game is miles better than haoh’s for a ton of reasons:
-
vega’s standing roundhouse is like top 3 best normal move anti airs in the game. haoh’s low fierce… isnt. vega’s rh eats up low jumps, haoh’s low fierce doesnt
-
vega’s crazy fast walking speed allows him to never get crossed up. all he has to do is walk back and your jump stays in front of him, where he roundhouses you for free
-
vega’s crazy fast jump gives him a ton of advantages: he can fight RCs a lot easier since randomly jumping up and down with him is so safe. he can also kill the one thing that threatens his mid-range game on reaction: rc fireballs. haoh’s jump is really big, so jumping up and down just isnt good with him. he also cant punish fireballs on reaction nearly as easily as vega
-
vega has airthrows for p/k grooves, and jump rh is one of the best jump-ins in the game. haoh’s jump fierce is pretty good, but his big jump makes it a lot worse.
-
vega’s slide is by far the easiest whiff punisher in the game. punishing even stuff like sakura whiffed roundhouses is cake. this also sets up a practically fool-proof rc rolling claw for good chip and guard bar. haoh’s whiff punishers arent nearly as easy.
-
if vega doesn’t want to be risky, he still has top tier pokes that are much safer: strongs and low forward. haoh only has standing strong which is punishable by both rolls, jumps AND JDs. low strong isnt that great.
anyway yea. vega outshines haoh in nearly every way, and the differences are what make make vega practically top-tier, and haoh a piece of garbage. the only things haoh has over vega is a guaranteed AA CC (and c-haoh doesnt even have that), throw trickery and a fierce that wont ever hit anybody.
ricky WAS doing that shit left and right at TS5.
and just because the kinha scrubs don’t do something, that doesn’t mean it’s not possible/good.
i have no clue how haoh is being compared to vega anyways.
okay okay i get it, haoh isn’t as good as vega
i was just using vega as an example of what haoh’s playstyle should be most similiar to.
i still think haoh isn’t 2nd worst. but i don’t think i can get much more to back him up.
if i can’t compare haoh to vega, then we shoulnd’t compare this debate to theh scrub guile discussion cuz
1)haoh isn’t on the higher tier list
2) i’m arguing that he should have been higher however no one(to my knowledge) plays the characters around haoh’s tier level seriously.
out of curiosity, why do rank A-haoh below…let’s say C-kyosuke? i’m a bit confused on this(as well as a few others on the low tier list).
p.s. if this haoh debate is irritating to any of you guys, i don’t mind dropping it.
stop using shitty people and pick sagat bitch
To say haohmaru is a shitty character just wrong . It is very ovious that he is not better in speed or pokes compared to vega. But his pokes combined with his insanse damage/other assests makes up for what he lacks their is no real comparison involved though they both use pokes but they have differnces in speed and movement makeing the two very different in gameplay style. Im not say hes to be at a top tier level but deserves a higher status.
please refer to my Hao thread as to why i believe so.
i use sagat but its getting boring useing him so i use
Tired of reading about Haoh. He sucks. Play someone else.
Groove specific tiers are much more useful.
These are not in any particular order within the divisions.
N-Groove (according to me, dispute at your leisure):
Way too Good
-Iori
-The Chun
-Blanka
Good
-Hibiki
-Vega
-Sagat
Pretty Good
-Rolento
-Rock
-Maki
-Bison
-Akuma
I obviously left out some characters because I don’t know how to play them and it would be silly for me to try to place them. People in the “pretty good” section are my personal choices and might not actually be any good. I really began to like Rock after I became smooth with the “pop trick”. One of the few characters that can get a level 3 in without flashing like a neon sign before the combo starts. Bison and Rolento you probably want flashing like a neon sign.
But yeah, I’m pretty awful.
lets drop the hao thing then for now :badboy: . Your N-groove specific tier listing seems good though i would boost the akuma to the good spot IMO as he is excellent in N cause it gives him all the tool he need and he can pop trick in many different instances.
bison doesnt need a neon flashy sign…
after a sciscor kick into MSC
where would we put K rock and K kyo?
they have their shares of combos tricks and no need for neon lvl 3…
K Kyo’s damage potential is extremely nice, but it just seems that JD isn’t really an effective substitute for parry. At the proper range, he can average over 4000 damage off a parry without meter. He can nearly hit 10,000 off a parry with meter. JD is more reliable, but it doesn’t create the same openings that parry does, which takes away some of the threat that Kyo can represent.
Plus he doesn’t benefit from the almighty random super.
well a raged kyo should make up for that.
theres also more risk if u mistime a parry… or not as confident as tapping forward instead of backwards.
but I like K becuz my meter builds up easier
A raged Kyo can make up for it, but it’s not very easy at all. Kyo’s game changes quite a bit when he’s raged because most of your opponents are now looking to lessen the damage they take from you until your rage is gone. It’s easier for him to close the gap at this point, but it’s generally much harder to create an opening to make good damage, especially if your going for his orochinagi juggles. Kyo’s solid enough to be put into any groove, K is definitely either his 2nd or 3rd best groove, but i’d still have to agree with it being below P.