Perhaps you should get myself, God, Ghosty, you, and some others of note to rate the chars 1-22, then use polling to see what people think.
Ugh I need to bring my computer home.
I NEED TO PLAY RB2 ahhhhhh!
I should be on this week if I do end up bringing my computer back home.
humbag your av can be harmful if stares too long into it!
=)
did anyone notice that 2df archives matches after you get done playing… it like makes a link to the replay of the session which is pretty neat
i wish i could play you some time. that list is pretty fucking decent. been playing this for 10 years so i can tell a little.
things i would change in the list. put franco 1 or 2 lower (he aint nowhere near the other 4 in that list). put tung 1 lower (in fact, he should be below B- and above C+ IMO). and lastly maybe put chonshu 1 lower. besides these points, your list seems pretty damn dead on
I’ve managed to convince Ghostpilot that Tung is decent, but I’ll keep working on it with the rest of you!
I could see Franco at B+, as he has a few problem matches. I just think he belongs in A- since he does very well against most of the high tier. Honestly, he seems to go about even with Rick & Geese unless I’m missing something, and those are the two best/most popular characters in the game. That’s another thing to keep in mind when ranking characters - not all matchups are equally important!
Along with Tung, Chonshu seems to spark the most disagreement. He has the fastest set of normals in the game (well, about tied with Tung, actually!), and his close C string gives him a great crossup game and huge frame advantage on block. His P-Power is one of the best supers in the game, too.
The thing is, that crossup should not be hitting people as often as it does. Whenever he tries that mixup, you can line shift on wakeup and backdash - nothing he can do! I also find it easier to block than, say, Claw’s walldives in ST; it just takes a bit of practice.
And he has a couple other problems. One is his lack of range, particularly on his B&B combos. And another is his breakshots, which pale in comparison to those of much of the cast. The DP is his only good one, but it lacks range and the motion makes it harder to execute on reaction than a charge or QCF motion.
All in all, I think A- is the right spot for him. He lacks the range & damage of the top-tier characters, but is quite small & fast (i.e. hard to hit) and has a very solid pressure game. What helps out his offense is the j.C - it can cross up, and its long downward reach means that it will beat a lot of the strongest anti-airs (A+B attacks, Rick’s dodge).
And finally, Spootz, I forgot to address your post where you said Rick should not be on top. He is rather lacking in mixup compared to Geese or Chonshu or even Kim, I will admit, but he easily has a stronger defensive game than any of those characters. And again, the Real Bout engine favors defense more strongly than most.
So what makes Rick good on defense? For starters, nice reversals (DP & P-Power) and extremely safe moves in general; even the DP generally can’t be punished with a big combo like most others can. He can wait outside the opponent’s poke range, bait something, and punish whiffs with a dashing C-C combo for lots of damage. And his QCF+A is one of the game’s better breakshots: Quick, above-average damage, frame advantage when it hits, and a motion that’s easy to perform on reaction.
However, one last element which is not so obvious but very powerful is the dodge. Like A+B attacks, it has upper-body invincibility and thus is only vulnerable to low kicks or attacks that travel along the ground. And after 10 frames (I think, frame data links are in the OP), you can cancel it into any attack. So if someone like Franco or Yama tries to poke you with a far C, you can dodge it and punish with a QCF+A or even the EX move if you have that!
The dodge is probably most useful as anti-air, though. After any jumping attack, you have a decent amount of landing recovery. So if you’re against a character who doesn’t have a jump attack that reaches downward, you can pass through their jumps with the dodge and punish with a low jab combo (a close B-C feint cancel combo is also possible, but not the easiest thing to land in time).
So when you combine all of the above with the quickness, pressure, and sheer damage potential, I think you have the #1 character in the game.
-Josh
Hey, Josh and co, you going to comment on Spooky’s casual set?
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5124593&postcount=175
We’ve got a good 8-10 people in NYC playing this game now, offer some tips / advice and what not.
And I stopped playing Mai and Xiangfei for Tung. Go figure. I need actual chains / combos with him though. His supers are ass.
lol
Yeah, the more I play Rick, the more I think he’s up there. His damage output is insane as long as you have meter. cr.a (from max range) combos with EX Shooting Star, which then combos into dashing C (midscreen reset) or a Hellion. That’s almost 1/2 life for a cr. a.
And the dodge is ok, but the only problem is if the opponent new it was coming. Empty jump and combos you…it’s bad.
Also, here’s something awesome I didn’t know until just a couple days ago:
Due to the lenient input window in the RB series, you can perform a special/super motion then immediately move to back or down/back. As long as you press the button within 15 frames or so, you’ll still get the move!
This serves two purposes:
-
Instant breakshots! The more important use of this trick, and probably the reason you see Japanese players breakshot single hits. It’s of no use with charge back motions, obviously, and it’s not quite as helpful with QCF moves since you can breakshot single hits on reaction with those anyway. But it’s great with QCB or DP or other motions (i.e. supers, Sokaku’s f,b,f+C), or even charge down breakshots (e.g. Kim’s flashkick, Hon-Fu’s roll) since it allows you to block high. Think of it like a parry with a larger window, basically, except it requires a motion first.
-
Reversal insurance. This is simple enough: Perform your wakeup reversal motion then block right before pressing the button. If you mess up the timing (which you really shouldn’t since reversal window is 6 frames in this game, but IF YOU DO), then you’ll just block.
This is great stuff, now work this into your game, people! =)
EDIT: Chibi, my next post will actually be comments & advice for your crew, once I finish watchint this. I’m hype as hell to hear that you guys have picked up this game - just the kind of new blood SNK needs!
-Josh
Josh you can do that in Real Bout Special also…you have a small window to buffer attacks…thus making my Mai in RBS deadlier…I can do WALKING Rising Flame attacks or with Kim walking Flash Kicks for this very reason…
Just wanted to note. EVERYONE REMEMBER THAT A+B HAS UPPER-BODY INVINCIBILITY. Use it. It can be used to stuff moves on reaction (Tung’s lunge punch for example).
P.S. I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was.
From where is this line? I remember hearing it in some anime but can`t remember clearly in which one.
It’s the original Pokemon series US Opening.
[media=youtube]dZPCZz4n7Zc[/media]
good points josh, i wish there where people around here besides my lil bros who know this game well enough to be a threat.
first point, on the franco part. he might do well against geese or rick, but he lacks against a lot of other characters like yamazaki and such. not to mention his mix up game can be overrated. only thing you need to do when being attacked by him is block low. his high hits from the chain or from the double gong take pretty long to actually hit someone (this was the case 10 years ago when we played it daily for 2 or so years). its not nearly as fast as say yamas overhead or some of the others, and he lacks a command throw like geese (who also has a slow overhead) to make up for it. all in all, i find his weaknesses compared to his strengths to leave him below the list of A-.
same for chonsu, but chonsu IS better than franco. so chonsu deserves that spot more than franco IMO. also good points on chonsu, his range is crappy and he needs to be really close for his better combos (unlike chonrei). other than this hes pretty damn safe.
on the rick point, hes got a crazy high low mix up game. hes got from what i remember at least 3 normal overheads, deadly low combos, especially in the corner (double or infinite dp). another way to use his evasive move (QCB+B) is to do it against jumping characters. don’t overuse it and use it wisely. know when to do it in which situation and you will get free spower (F-HCF+BC) on jumping opponents and perhaps also another free unblockable :qcb: + :snka: too.
another thing about rick, its easy to hit characters who do not have an invincible dp with his unblockable move. and even they can trade hits as you can distance yourself so that they only have high priority DP’s, instead of invincible dp’s. from what i know about, there are 3 instances to hit the unblockable or trade hits with it. after his ppower, after his spower (f-hcf+BC) and after a corner combo hitting his dp twice. after these moves, check out the way his opponents falls and how long they take to stand up. they seem to be in some sort of stun that makes them eat the QCB+A move very easily. just perform it at the right time so that the fist will hit them as soon as the first frame of your opponent can be hit.
about the tung player. he doesn’t have any really good chains or combos. some small useful combos with him.
:snka:, :snka:, :d: + :snkb:, :qcb: + :snka:
:snka:, :snkc:, :qcb: + :snka:
:df: + :snka:, :snkc:, :dp: + :snkb: or :qcb: + :snka:
:snka:, spower.
:snkc: + :snkd:, :snkc: + :snkd:, :snkc: either :dp: + :snkb: and ppower afterwards or ppower right after the last :snkc: (when not in corner).
:snka: + :snkb:, :snkc: overhead and crosses over.
hes got some more combos, but all of them small.
on the delay input, thats a cheese we’ve been using since we got RBS back in 96. (we even used it to some degree with game like SFA). an easy way to confirm invincible ppowers and dp’s. when close to an opponents, say they are getting up. you have already performed the motion for mais ppower for this instance, you see them throw out anything from the fastest jab in the game to their ppower or whatever. you press C and its all done, their fucked. best way to use these moves, outside of combos of course.
good news for new players. the RB series, and especially RBS and RB2 are really friendly and easy to get into (everything works so well). they are very easy compared to say kof or sf to get into (and get good with, IMO). believe me when i tell you that you can have a few characters tournament ready in a week or 2. though the best way is still experience. personally i can play all the characters and almost all of them on a tournament level. which is of course really good since you know what you can expect from which character. making it a lot easier not walking into set ups and such if you can play the opposing character as well.
You might not have noticed, but there are actually several of us here.
Go here: http://75.125.154.50/
Follow the instructions. Start playing. I expect to see you on shortly.
ill be installing this shit. hows the lag? also, is it possible to play people from china ad japan without too much lag? thanx.
p.s. im no genius with PC’s and all that installing shit. im using MZ firefox. do i skip step 1 and 2? also link please for needed version of FBA. ill be installing all this shit asap. hope we can have some nice matches.
another quick q, anybody know where to order these usb plug ins so i can plug in say, a neo cd pad or a ps2 pad? again, thanx.
you don’t need to download fba, just follow the steps and you’re good to go
Good stuff, guys!
Don’t have it in me to make another long post, especially since I still need to finish watching the Team Sp00ky matches, so I’m just gonna add a couple things for Tung.
For all the combos that begin with close A, you can also use crouching A as it has the exact same frame data.
The most practical way to combo his supers is to perform them immediately after landing a jumping C. Both supers require you to be next to the opponent for everything to connect, so it’s risky to cancel normals into them.
The S-Power is also gdlk for chip damage kills. It lasts long enough to catch backdashes, and it hits people in the background so that takes away the other universal escape option.
A+B -> C is a good move, contrary to what has been said previously. The main idea is to treat it kinda like Guile’s knee - that is, you don’t WANT it to hit since you’ll get thrown for free, but it serves other purposes. You can whiff it in front of the opponent and throw or close C combo, which is effective since the move is so fast, and after a knockdown you can perform it right as the opponent gets up to land on the other side and go for a close C combo. Heck, there might be a way to land on either side with it if you can find the right distance…
-Josh
I bought my PS2 adapter from RadioShack; but I don’t know if they have them anymore.
P.S. Make sure to join the IRC channel. #srksnk at EFnet.
Heyas folks, sorry I haven’t been posting here lately. It’s been for a variety of reasons, but that’s for another post.
Anyway, yeah, Josh has shown me a bit more about how Tung can be useful, putting him up from Low to Mid, but make no mistake: Tung is not without a bunch of issues.
As said in the previous thread Tung can be effective, but he has to be played in a certain way in order to be effective. If he’s forced to deviate from that and go offensive, or if he has to compete with a charcter with more range then he’s at a disadvantage.
Additionally, his supers are lacking, and his sole overhead leaves him at frame disadvantage. While this can be worked around to an extent, it can pose a huge problem versus characters with swift command throws (Geese, Krauser, Duck, Yamazaki), and potentially outright fatal vs. someone like Bob, who can go into an infinite from his throw.
Played defensively, though, Tung can be a real pain. One can’t be overly aggressive or careless versus him as he’s apt to punishing mistakes. However, because of the way he’s played, and his rather low damage output, one cannot expect a turnaround victory (along the lines of Geese, Krauser, Bob, or Rick) to come from him often. He has to over-extend himself to do the larger amounts of damage and in doing so, it leaves him open.
If you can make the most of your range, get ahead on damage, and put him into a position where he has to come to you, then it forces Tung’s hand, and gives him less options than he already has.
Something to keep in mind with Tung, as mentioned previously thread, is that his :dp:+:snkb: has a tendency to go under people jumping in or otherwise hit improperly.
The :qcf:+:snkc: is the single worst special in the game. :bluu: Low damage, low priority, and substantial frame disadvantage on hit or block.
2 of his otherwise better specials can only be done from a taunt, making them not only hugely telegraphed, but unable to be comboed from anything.
The :qcf:+:snka: is a decent move. Though low on the damage-end, it has decent recovery and huge priority. :tup:
The :qcb:+:p: (aka: the “okiedokie”) is easily his best special and main all-purpose tool: it has good damage, decent speed / priority, and the :snka: version in most situations is reasonably safe. Just be careful on using it on those with long range, because as safe as it is most of the time, it can still be punished.
The S-Power is capable of decent chipping damage, and can be comboed into in certain situations, but beyond that it has little use (as detailed in this post). Much of what is said of the S-Power can also be applied to the P. While it has great comboability due to it being faster and juggleable, it has hefty recovery, isn’t the easiest move to land properly, and not a great amount of invincibility / priority.
The real test for Tung is to see how he can perform against turtlers and characters who are actively controlling their space to keep Tung out.
By the way, Spooky, I’ll check out the video as well and give pointers where applicable. Might be a little while though: that’s one long video. :looney: