The Middle, Lower and Bottom Tiers of the game(and suggestions to improve them)

Classic Fighting Games Capcom VS SNK 2
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Since there’s a thread talking about Tiers, I thought it would be good to start another that talks about the less significant people in CvS2.

You can also post some suggestions on how to play them better, correct some of my errors… and even suggest what they should improve when (if ever) a CvS3 comes out.

These Range from Tiers 3 down to Tier 5

Mid Tiers: These are not really bad ones, they can work with the best of them, except they have to give more effort than the Top or semi-top tiers, but they can go toe to toe if played accordingly to how they’re supposed to play

Highest mid Tier IMO: Akuma

despite his weakness in vitality, his versatility gives him a deciding edge over most of the third raters.

Not in order

Morrigan: With or without Dash she’s almost on top of the mid-tiers list if not for her vitality (well the same can be said about Akuma too but he’s more versatile IMO because despite lacking chains, he can go from one move to another, can survive an in close-fight, can zone, and can rush better)

Terry Bogard: It sucks to see him in Tier 3 but I guess that’s him… because you often spend time blocking a move with more priority, getting a knockdown or getting a close fierce works best for this guy, otherwise stay grounded… the air is definetely not his best friend…

If it weren’t for SEVERE problem matches with chun li, Sagat, Blanka, Bison, Yamazaki, and Vega he would at least be at the bottom of the Tier 2.

Ryo: He’s IMO tied with Terry, he has an edge in a case that he doesn’t have that much bad matches as terry does, but compensates (against his favor) by not having significant strenghts (outside of only a level 2 in C-Groove), a Poor Man’s shoto. but the damage he does with his normal moves clearly prevents him from falling down to Tier 4.

Rolento: He’s actually very VERY good, the only reason IMO he’s Tier 3 for me is because he’s hard to use, and easeness of use DOES contribute to tiering.

Vice: Knowing to use the right tools at the right time spells Tier 3 for this former good character. has good linking possibilities, decent defensive options, a cross-up. but of course you just can’t rush with her the same way she can be used to in CvS1.

Eagle: Good chipping capabilties, good range and good damage, too bad average priotity and slow speed sinks him to Tier 3.

Todoh: Todoh is almost as good as rolento (although IMO easier to use) but being so predictable and having only limited offensive strats downgrade him to the third grade

Mai: If her jump was much better, then she’d be Tier 2

Yun: slightly above King because he’s more annoying.

King: The Lower-mid Tier character, she’d still confined in Mid because she can still annoy a lot of people if you know what you’re doing, she still has some options to keep you out, a fast super and a good roll. she’s lower mid obviously because she takes damage like hell, and with the lack of range and priority.

LIMBO TIER: Rugal

As of now It’s either he’s the tied with king as the lowest mid-tier or the best lower tier (both not a title to be proud of)

Big Damage and all but gets guard crushed very often, and he can’t outpoke more than half the characters in the game, a bad jump, very slow, and below average priority.

oh I forgot, once your opponent knows you’ve got a super it’s easier for them to keep you out than it is for you to even land just one hit that leads to a damaging combo…

sorry but even his high vitality doesn’t save him from this.

Lower Tier (Tier 4): Being outclassed by a majority of characters in the game YET not totally hopeless.

Benimaru: you have to build meter here and there and keep a good keep-away game, landing a cross-up is not as practical as it was before, and he rarely has a chipping game, sweep is lowed down and priorities reduced from CvS1, his ground speed is OK but his jump mostly gets you in the wrong places in the wrong time more often than not. you don’t have many options that go froma ground barrage to a special move, and most of them are either too short ranged (pushes you too far) or susceptible to error (Iaido kick anyone)

Maki: I dunno I really never found her as a threat outside of well attempted dash moves even when I’m using a new character for practices.

Yuri: Poor Man’s Sakura, reduced priority, dinky range, lack of combos and takes damage like shit.

Bottom Tiers (Tier 5)

Anyone want a donut???

Kyosuke: nuff said

Dan: I guess the name speaks for itself.

I know I have forgotten some chars, and I’m not saying this is definite, this is just based on what I see everyday so far.

I’ll post my own “improvements” later on…

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And remember Tiers are only supposed to be a “suggestive” term used to identify the characters strenghts and weaknesses more clearly…

they shouldn’t be seriously considered as your primary choice of “you should use this… or you should use that… because he’s Tier XX”

Capcom never made “official Tiers”

In the end, it still boils down to the amount of skill you can contribute, and/or to the characters you REALLY just like when it comes to picking a character.

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Uh, I agree and disagree. Highest Mid-tier would be Geese, Yama, and Chun. Akuma is up there to, along with Balrog and some others. The top three are supposed to be considered top-tier if you can use them to there max potential. They can go toe to toe with the “real” top-tiers, the only difference being they scrub friendly ( maybe Yama ). Rolento and Eagle are up there to. The thing that caught my eye is the Rugal comment. If you think in any way he is “limbo-tier” you are crazy. If you knew how good that fucker was you wouldn’t say that. The Rugal player’s are so good down here, if you think Rugal is down there, you don’t know how to use him good, or you never seen a good Rugal player. He can hang with top tiers and is anti-cammy and chun and Blanka, and gives Sagat a hard ass time. Plus c.mp is a anti-poke, stuffing almost all normals in the game.

Edit: DAN IS MIDDLE TIER. He has good links, priority, and different ways to cross-up. AND he is strong, and has above average health. Yes, I’m sorry to dissapoint the haters out there, DAN IS ACTUALLY A DECENT CHARACTER!!!

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alright to start things off I’ll talk about Dhalsim who is becoming one of my favorites to use (rather than just favorites in style).

His warp is deadly. Little people seem to know you can warp in the air. Vary up your air warps and then go into his screws choosing the one for the appropriate distance. Also abuse his basic fierce punch and roundhouse. He’s a zoning character so zone with him. Oh and warp backwards even when against the wall - it can be used like a poor man’s dodge. Remember he’s got low vitality so stay away. Throw fireballs they are probably the hardest full screen projectile to parry or justdefend. If your opponent gets hit by a fierce one - throw a weak one right after it. It gets across the screen at right before they get up which will keep your zoning good.

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For Me Geese is Tier 2 (semi-top), so is chun li. Yamazaki is Tier 1 (Top Tier) , I don’t see Geese being a mid tier, once I discovered his insane cross-up capability and in-close pressure game, as well as a knockdown game that’s even better than Terry, there’s no way he can be “mid” not even upper mid only.

well said.

And yet as we see there was no good Rugal player at SBO all of them were pretty much raped. The trouble with him is, he can’t keep a pressure when in close ranges, he can zone with the best of them but that’s all he can really do… I understand capcom’s intention of making him a purely zoning character but they didn’t get the job done, and RC rapes him, in fairness his damage factor keeps him from beign bottom tier, But If he can’t beat Benimaru… what makes you think he can at least go toe to toe against sagat? (although i respect your opinion) BTW if he’s not lower mid where would you put him?

I’ll check this out.

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interesting…

what do you people think of
(my opinion enclosed)

ken( best shoto )

rock ( most underated char. most potential)

nakoruru( low hp, best mind game, good turtle, ive been told that most people hate her…hehehehehehe…:smiley: )

kim( good supers and interesting game)

hibiki ( casual play on my part but i like her style)

“In the end, it still boils down to the amount of skill you can contribute, and/or to the characters you REALLY just like when it comes to picking a character.” - Rugal 3:16

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ken( best shoto )

rock ( most underated char. most potential)

nakoruru( low hp, best mind game, good turtle, ive been told that most people hate her…hehehehehehe… )

kim( good supers and interesting game)

hibiki ( casual play on my part but i like her style)

Ken I definately agree is the best Shoto. I occassionally use him but his supers aren’t anything great in my opinion.

Rock has great potential and is definately under-rated although I don’t think I’d say the most under rated. Because of ground projectiles being parried and just defended forward (instead of down) his game can easily be leveled. If those ground projectiles needed to be low parried/just defended than he’d probably be second tier. Right now I’d put him at a high third tier.

Nakoruru is often considered top tier. I know I consider her to be. If not she’s definately in the top of the second tier.

Kim is one of my favorite characters. I think he’s easily one of the top second tiers. His varied game is good and his supers are some of the best - nothing like doing his ground super (sorry I don’t know names) through Sagat’s super projectile (again I don’t know names).

Hibiki I use to use because she’s fun and is somewhat easy to get the hang of. Only problem I find is her air moves are poor. She also lacks a little in vitality. I’d say she’s top third tier to middle third tier. Top being because yes she’s easy to mash out pokes with but middle third because that only works against so many and her vitality sucks.

What do you all think about Guile?

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…I’ve always known Rugal to hold his own, but not exactly being the anti-Blanka or anti-ChunLi. That would kinda suggest Rugal dominates over them…I’m not sure if that’s the case. Rugal is good, but he seems to have very, very bad match-ups to certain characters in general, sans selected Groove (Ex: Athena, PsychoBison, ClawVega); to which I consider Blanka one of them (haven’t played [R] versus ChunLi matchups enough to decipher). What would you recommend to those in that particular faceoff ([R] versus Blanka) to favor Rugal?

I’m assuming this thread was made to help out the game of players who use mid and low tier characters, so let us know whenever you got the time. Thanks.

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It’s so hard to say who is the best shoto. Akuma has a crazy offense, crazy combos, good supers, but the sorriest health in the game. Ryu is strong, crazy links and combos into shinku hadouken, good offense/defense, most used among the pros. Ken has all the kicks, a good rush game, good links and supers, can chip and break guard like crazy. So please be more specific when you say which shoto is better. I’m out of time so I will post to the other comments later.

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I fail to see how his projectile (specifically this ‘attribute’ of it) has ANYTHING to do with his tier. This makes little to no sense to me.:confused::wtf:

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I forgot to tell yall my friends have roll cancelling with Rugal down perfertly, those bastard never mess up. What’s worse is they use C- groove, so if you jump, RC godpress, if you rush them down, RC godpress, it’s annoying. As for Rugal giving Sagat trouble, it’s due to the fact he can turtle real well against Sagat, and Rugal has the best recovery on a command fireball in the game, with the cost of not being able to combo into it. So a little trap game comes up, fireball, then anti-air, so-on and so-on. I’ll post more later.

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Againt P-Groove or K-Groove his often used projectile followed up by his shoulder rush (sorry I don’t know move names that well) is much easier to defend or parry because its just forward->forward or back->back … If that didn’t happen he would be much better IMO but all ground projectiles get parried/just-defended like normal projectiles.

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This is just plain stupid. This has nothing to do with his standings. The things that make Rock good are the following:

-best normal AA in the game (s. rh)
-awesome anti-air super (Raging Storm)
-huge huge HUGE priority j. rh (and c. rh is awesome too)
-ability to break turtlers (Command Throw, LVL3 Shine Knuckle)
-abilility to bait (jab Burn Knuckle)

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I agree. You cant judge a character based on one ‘trap’ against 2 of the 6 grooves. It just makes no sense… you’re whole game isnt going to rely on it… i dont know rock though :frowning: im just hoping to pick him up.

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im would never consider my self great player because there is much to learn but from my experience, rock is very good (i guess his weak grooves would be a and s, well “a” depends on your ability to rc, “s” cuz he doesnt have the best range with his s.rh or s.fierce and the like…) point is, if u decide to pick him up… well you are going to have to invest plenty o time on his strats. and a tip even if you might not need it. all of his moves have use w/ the exception of rage run type save, front qc to back mk…well except to run under sagats his tiger shot and super high tiger shot and maybe to avoid a cross up in a dash groove… but then again rock= aa so um…

ken= best shoto imo to be specific

akuma doesnt do well against fast chars. think cammy and he takes damage like nakoruru… by the way most nakoruru players can stop his "air-play"with her own. akuma doesnt have the best defense and he cant do much agaisnt top tiers, sagat, blanka, cammy.

ryu is very strong but in a-groove u lose his strongest super while ken lose the least used shinpuu. ryu lack variation which i have to admit akuma has, then ken and then ryu. ryu’s c-cancels suck compared to ken. ryu cant chip as well as ken. think ken in n-groove with consequetive shoryureppa(vertical dp) one correctly timed = one fierce punch…:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :cool: :wink: ryu doesnt have a hot chick or munny:D

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I think you’re wrong on several of your points.

First, Rock doesn’t require many strats. He is a simple character to use. You can do fine with just his just his rh. In fact, I’m willing to wager that Rock is probably one of the few character’s who has a one button solution to all his problems.

ie.

Anti-air - rh
Poke - c. rh
Jumpin - j. rh
Throw - dash, rh throw

Second, Ryu doesn’t lack variation. And who said variation == good character? Sagat’s c. fierce is variation? Cammy’s s. fierce/s. rh is variation? I think you’re missing the point. Ryu is good because he has STRONG moves that Ken does NOT. He has hop kick to get it, s. fierce as high priority poke which is faster than Ken’s s. rh. He has standard Shoto c. forward. He has standard Shoto crossup rh, and a GREAT (MUCH BETTER THAN KEN’S) SHORYUKEN. His fierce SRK gives him the damage that Ken’s fierce doesn’t have and also the luxury of doing it without the difficult timing jab SRK Ken has to resort to. Shoto players should know what I’m talking about here (jab SRK’s trade a lot if done normally in CVS2 because of many character’s REALLY high priority attacks, and Ken’s fierce SRK [while it does do 3 hits even as an AA] sometimes gets only 1-2 of the hits [once again, timing is required unlike Ryu’s fierce SRK]).

Third, Ryu lacks C-groove LVL2 cancels? Are you smoking something? LVL2 Shinku Hadoken xx rh Hurricane or LVL1 Shinkuu. Not only is this damaging, but it’s a good wakeup, and more importantly it’s safe. Can also be done out of a roll. Speaking of which, roll xx Super Hurricane is safe also, and it chips and guard crushes. Ken has NONE of these options since his supers leave him bitched.

Anyway, think about this.

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ok ok i think i did say that ryu was the strongest…

super hurricane safe… are YOU smoking something? listen big guy, ryu CAN’T sweep into supers at all while ken can get his shinryureppa in after a sweep… super hurricane safe… hehe may the people where you play at dont duck while blocking but you can sweep ryu’s cup cake as (depending on your char. even lvl 3 and the like)

i also fail to realize why anyone would to a f.dp as a wake up w/ ryu OR ken. i know it trades hits or stops even the best pokes. all supers can be “done out of a roll” im not saying that ken is a unstoppable beast but IMO he the best of the shotos

try this… use ken c-groove lvl 2 shinryuken into mendigo kick… (
backwards dp w/kick) check the damage and well… love it

while u HAVE to use your last lvl 1 to do enough damage(besides it all depends on the distance to shinhadoken----> hurricane or fireball) as that c-cancel

in p and k u need to use a multi-hit aa to atleast give the person more trouble

once again ryu CANT chip aswell as ken and a reversal is much harder to time against a lvl 1 shoryureppa unlike a hurricane kick
listen dont get me wrong ryu is a good char. but ken is alittle bit better in more ways than ryu is better than ken.

oh and your comment about rock… rock is a great char. but all im saying that its not scrub friendly (not calling you a scrub:) ) so you need to practice to have a decent rock.

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or me Ryu is the best shotokan for several reasons.

First is his damage factor
Second is his deadly cross-up game
Third is his combo factor
Fourth is way to stay close to you like a leach whenever he likes to
Fifth is that he cam also keep you away with relative ease

all you really need is a good level 1

and Running plus low jabs is a very damn good tactic.

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man, i said srk as anti-air not wakeup. super hurricane is safe. the other stuff u said didn’t make too much sense.

edit:

ur ken lvl2 cancel is laughable. i said roll xx super is much safer and much more practical with Ryu’s supers. sweep xx super? wtf r u talking about? and rock is definetly scrub friendly.

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:lol: :lol: :lol: sorry guy but you are as smart as an orange… rock scrub friendly? are you out your mind? thats why you see sooooooo many rock players out there… :rolleyes:
blanka even though top tier IS scrub friendly, mai IS scrub friendly, some say yama, guile, even sagat…

rock does have his rh BUT he cant live off it for long against a p or k groove player. please think things through. hot head.

i didnt make sense? be specific sweetheart.

ok i guess ill go slow FOR the slow
pick ken have a super ready, sweep and do his vertical super and it will combo in the air.

:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :eek: ooooooohhhhh so you can “roll xx” but you do know that invulnerability doesnt last the whole move right? i know its obvious but im not so sure who im talking to…

ken. listen i can also “xx” lvl 2 multi-dp, command roll and lvl 1 vertical super BUT i would much rather do the mentioned combo because i still keep my last lvl 1

oh and ryu doesnt have a chick;)