Hmm I’m not sure it would work like that. I’m sure they could make it so you had to be in the corner or close to in order to get the combo. Rufus’s tornado moves him towards the corner but you don’t really see anyone making a big fuss about it. And yeah Balrog can just do a combo into special into ultra anywhere on the screen so I’m not sure it would be as game changing as people think. Yes it’d make Fei better but no, not anywhere near broke I don’t think.
just thought about why cw dosent hit overhead. characters with overhead specials either dont have overhead normals, or the overhead normal sucks ass. i think i like fei’s overhead as is. i dont want it to be retard slow just so the cw hits overhead. bad trade imo
Valle was saying on IRC yesterday that he thinks Fei beats Sagat. Basically he thought that Fei did fine midscreen v Sagat and blew Sagat up when he cornered Sagat because he can use hk chicken wing’s invincibility can be used to get through stuff and trap Sagat in. In my own experience v Fei as Gief, it’s seemed like a fairly evenish matchup. Some of you guys are proposing pretty serious changes. Do you really think he needs that? I’m pretty wary about making significant changes to the console characters since they’ve been much explored less than the arcade characters. This is especially true for Fei, considering that 2 of the 3-4 Fei users anyone knows about have used him to win or place high in tournaments.
Dig it for sure his hook slaps are awesome
Fei Vs Geif is one of his worst matchups and until I see Valle beat up Sagats regularly I don’t believe he knows the matchup, Fei IMO needs a few more options
Fei does fine vs Sagat mid screen? Pretty much everything he does there is a risk. Tiger knee pressure is a bitch for him to deal with and HK chicken wing in the corner is terrible. Sagat can just crouch and then punish with a full combo. There’s very little HK chicken wing will go through vs him. And even then it’s still a big risk since it doesn’t cross sagat up in the corner like some characters.
The big problem in this match is damage output though. Sagat’s hits count for a lot more than Fei’s, and he only really needs a few opening or correct guesses, where as Fei has to constantly fight to stay in range vs him and really be on top of the other player in order to get a win. Ultra juggling with Fei would help a lot to even this out, and if Sagat sees a few balance changes, I don’t think it’ll be too bad in Super. It’s just that right now, at some point in the match because of Fei’s low damage, you’re going to have to deal with a full combo into ultra. So Sagat pretty much can always even it out or catch up and some point.
In close is also kinda bad for this just because if you lose momentum and he gets a jab or short on you, it can lead back into tiger knee pressure and assuming you get hit at some point, you gotta fight your way back in from full screen.
If you’re judging by Justin’s fei or whoever, I don’t think that’s really a fair assumption. Justin is good vs Sagat, not Fei, lol. You could probably link us a video of the matches whre Fei beats Sagat and me or Emblem Lord or Starnab could probably tell you where they went wrong in that matchup, as I know the three of us have a TON of Fei vs Sagat experience and have all come to the conclusion that it’s not in Fei’s favor.
On Geif, I’m not sure most of the proposed changes would really matter since you just want to lame Geif out anyway. The only thing Fei could get to help in this matchup is maybe a better hit box on flame kick so it hits lower. Or possibly Geif having a bigger hitbox on his whiffed command grab animation so CW doesn’t sail over it if you’re forced in a guessing game up close and happen to guess right with CW.
I’d probably say that match is about even, maybe slightly in Geif’s favor.
It is true though, HK CW can be a nightmare for Sagat if Fei can get him to the corner. Then again, it takes one correctly predicted tiger uppercut and all that damage you did in the last 20 seconds is meaningless because it’s tied now.
Everybody thought Gief was a terrible matchup, I swear. I’ve heard that at various points in the game’s life from Abels, Akuma, Balrogs, Cammys, Chuns, Dans, Dhalsims, Hondas, Feis, Goukens, Kens, Bisons, Rufuses, Ryus, Sakuras, Vegas, and Vipers. For almost every character that’s proved to not be the case, Fei included imo.
I’m down with some of the changes you guys want. The ultra should connect fully when it hits, chicken wing and standing jab could have better vertical hitboxes, maybe his anti-focus game could get a little better, rekkas could be a little safer, etc. But I’m really wary about buffing Fei. I think his relative lack of success has much more to do with the fact that almost no one plays him than with something wrong with his design.
Fei can’t handle tiger knee pressure? Seems to me like low forward goes under certain types of tiger knees… enough that Sagat can’t mindlessly spam them, anyway.
Actually your proposed changes just now are fine IMO. If they gave him that stuff I’d be fine with him actually. Maybe a slight damage buff too but no telling how being able to combo into ultra might change that so he may not even need that. I agree that he hasn’t seen a lot of success just because hardly no one plays him. He does need a little polish but I’ve never said he was a bad character really. I think a lot of people feel he just felt a little unfinished and rushed as a character.
As far as other matchups I think Fei does fine vs everyone. His biggest problems are Sagat which I’d say is probably 6.5 in sagats favor and Geif who’s probably only 5.5 and that’s mainly just due to damage output and unreliable ultra. If the first hit of his ultra lead into the full animation, there’s been so many times I would have won vs Geif when I lost. It’ll get the first hit and then the second will whiff and he’ll block the rest and ultra me in return. All you really need is st.HK and rekkas in that match though, it’s kinda dumb. In an ideal world that matchup is actually probably in Fei’s favor but one mistake on Fei’s part and he has a hell of a time getting the match back to neutral. If flame kick beat lariat on startup I think it’d be no problem. Fei’s just sorta forced to sit there and block or jump on wake up vs Geif though so it can be rough. Course, if fei had that as well as the beastly st.HK he has now, Geif would struggle a lot in that matchup so maybe it’s good the way it is now. Play perfect, beat Geif. Let him get in, lose.
Doesn’t work really in close. At range you can do it if you react to the knee but you don’t get any guaranteed damage off of that I don’t think. It’s kinda iffy. You’re better off flame kicking it if you see it in time. Most of the Sagat’s I’ve fought that could beat me (just emblem lord and roski) use knee in response to fei’s poking game. It beats out st.HP, cr.HP, cr.MP, etc etc pretty well surprisingly. I think if the hit box on TK wasn’t so strong so early, it’d be a lot easier to deal with. Feels like poking into a DP from mid range though.
So Fei does arguably no worse than 6-4 (or 5.5-4.5) against everyone except Sagat (and even that’s maybe not true), and the title of this thread is “make Fei Long competitive”? Everyone’s suggesting serious Fei buffs without possible nerfs to rebalance him?
Make his rekkas safer, juggle into big damage off flame kick with ultra, command throw faster, cancelable low strong/forward into rekkas etc… to push all the matchups seriously in Fei’s favor? I don’t get it. How much does Fei really need, and how much is just total underexposure of the character?
Yeah I don’t agree with the title really.
Low strong and low forward into rekkas wouldn’t be too huge considering the range on his cr.LP. I think people just want more tools to use than just cr.HP if they want to lead into specials. Rekkas being safer though is kinda needed, as is being able to use his ultra. Rekkas are super punishable actually, I’m not sure why you don’t see people getting raped for it more often. Sagat can do cr.LP DP FADC forward heavy ultra if he blocks ANY of the hits. Command throw, I’m not really sure on that. It’s not super useful and it’s not useless. I’m not sure what they could do to balance it out. You can’t really use it as a part of his game right now, it’s more of a gimmick, so i’m not sure if they intended it to be a huge part of Fei or just another tool.
I think they meant it to help him be a can opener but you really rarely see it in matches. It’s an every now and then surprise out of block strings that’s easy to beat if they expect it.
Well-spaced first rekka isn’t safe? It’s very easy to hit-confirm the full rekka string, isn’t it? There should be no reason why you should be randomly throwing out the second rekka. I was under the impression that well-spaced first rekka is virtually unpunishable by all characters. If you throw out a bad rekka from close range maybe, then sure, but that’s not what I mean.
Also, about command throw… this post doesn’t apply anymore?
Actually rekka is almost never safe. As long as their poke can hit you afterwards, it’s punishable. Reason it’s usually safe at max distance is because most pokes will whiff at that range. The punishes are tight but they’re there. Also “well spaced rekka” is a lot tighter than “well spaced tiger knee”. I’m talking like very max distance last active frame for safety. That’s not always an option and if you’re doing things like cr.LP into rekkas, there’s not really a way to safely do that.
Of course most people haven’t caught onto this but if Fei saw more competitive play, more players would practice punishing it. I practiced it myself and it’s actually really easy for Fei to punish his own rekkas.
That’s exactly why I think that people who think that Fei is fine haven’t been practicing the matchup. The reason the few competitive Fei players can win so often is because there are so few competitive Fei players for the Akumas and Sagats of the world to learn from. To that end, he becomes something of a gimmick character because you can to a certain extent count on the other player not knowing what to do.
Honestly, there are deficiencies with the design. If you read the post I made a page back it talks about all of the ones I know of. Can’t say for sure if there are more or not.
- CW flies over the heads of smaller characters which can lead to a crossup on that character
- Ultra can’t hit confirm itself which leads to some seriously “oh fuck that” moments
- Ditto to rekkas, no matter the strength used
- HK.CW startup – not part of the original design – patched in as a whoopsie from Capcom since they didn’t realise you could hit an easy infinite on two members of the cast
- Almost everything there is to say about Tenshin, no matter what the rebuttals say
It’s not like he’s broken in the bad way, but he’s certainly not as well designed as some of the other cast members. If everyone is getting buffs as we’re told they are, the bar will be something like “Ryu +1” and given that Fei v Ryu is easily 6-4 bordering on 7-3 as-is, unbuffed Fei v SSF4 Ryu would be like, 8-2, no problem.
I’m reminded of the video I saw of Yeb playing Gen. He’d win the first 5 or so matches, then get bodied from there on because his opponent simply figured his shit out. And it’s not as if Yeb’s predictable or a bad player, it’s just that once you get your head around Gen’s tricks, he’s really not that bad. Fei’s the same, only it takes far less time to figure him out since he has far less tricks.
The reason why Fei/Gief is such an awful matchup is the same reason why Fei/Abel is. Abel needs to get in close to hit Gief, and so does Fei. Yes you can poke and yes you can keep yourself in that “sweet spot” but it doesn’t work against Gief, because lariat. It beats ultra clean, it beats rekkas clean, it beats CW clean, it beats crossups clean, it beats Tenshin clean (though everything beats Tenshin clean), it beats etc etc you get it. The only thing it doesn’t beat clean is cr.HP/MK, both of which whiff at any kind of range, and his flame kick which has a recovery window so large you could fit a piano through it. A lot of the people that complain about Gief just have no patience, but truthfully, Fei has two moves he can use against Gief. That’s it. Only reason Abel has it worse is because at least Fei DOES have cr.HP/MK, hah.
On tiger knee… you can hit cr.MK if you like but you have to hit it like it’s a psychic DP. It’s unreliable. Fei shouldn’t have an instant get-out against tiger knee but then he shouldn’t have to make a blind guess either. I suspect they’ll nerf tiger knee come SSF4 anyway so maybe it’s a moot discussion. Samurai’s right: the big problem is the startup hitbox because it beats so many things clean. I’d say that the other issue is how long it stays active. Nothing like being caught with a knee moving at about an inch per second and still eating a ton of damage.
In summary… Fei isn’t good, but he’s close to it. I think that with the fixes I posted earlier he wouldn’t be great, but he’d be up there.
Infil and ultra david. lots of under exposure for the character IMO. He has the ability to compete against the entire cast. no fei user is getting everything out of him yet. still no one hit confirming from rekka one, still no one really hit confirming into super. i think most of us fei sers need to be more honest with ourselves. I havent been touching the forums as much because i realize that i still have a really long way to go before i can start to pass along knowledge to others. meaning i can think shit out really well, but in matches, i still get beat by stupid shit. but i realize that it is due to my own shortcomings as a player, and its not fei’s fault that i get impatient while trying to work my way in. and its not his fault i dont train myself for rekka one hit confirms
he has solid footsies for good ground control, and a plethora of good anti air options. he can get zoned out, but so do most non fireball characters. his only true drawback is lack of comeback ability due to his poor ultra. and he also lacks strong mixup options after getting a knockdown, so maintaing momentum can be a problem.
as a far as sagat goes, TK does stuff a lot of fei’s shit, but sagat really cant mindlessly go into safe Tk strings. RH CW eats it right up with its massive invulnerability. i posted about two months ago how good i think max range crouch fierce is in this match. when fei gets to proper range, he basically forces sagat to do something unsafe. he either has to jump, or go for a mk TK, or fish for focus attacks if he wants to go on the offensive. sagat has an easier time, but its not a super easy cruise to victory fight. and if a ryu player can low foward under TK’s, then so can fei. the moves are identical from an execution standpoint. the only difference being more frames on hit for ryu, which dosent apply here.
all he really needed in this current version was a three hit ultra from juggles(which is possible if anyone learns the timing), and for grounded ultra to get all hits if the first connects. there are also some hitbox issues on various characters:
landed tenshin on rufus yields "far"normals
landed tenshin on chun yields “far” normals
ryu has two different hitstun annimations, one that allows bnb, the other allows dp fadc ultra and a lost round
foward throw out of the corner makes the opponent go farther away than normal
couching e.honda ducks second hit of a pre confirmed rekka sequence
those are more because of a lack of playtesting tho. and i really dont understand the complaints about RH CW. it gets you out of a lot of situations. balrog ex punches, el fuerte mixup, scissor knee traps, tk traps, throws etc
RH CW is great actually, I don’t see anyone complaining about it. It just sucks balls vs certain characters. Like Sagat.
I think a problem with that in that matchup is to use RH CW to beat TK you have to do it sorta early. If you anticipate wrong Sagat can jsut see the slow animation and DP you. I use RH CW in every matchup I can get away with it but when I start getting tiger uppered on reaction to the startup animation, I quit using it. It’s only really useful vs players that play the poking game. I think LK and MK CW need to see some changes to keep them useful like HK CW. There’s no reason you shouldn’t get just as much reward on hit with any version. MK and LK CW would be amazing if they had the same hit / block stun as HK. They would actually be useful.
I dunno… I really think any Fei’s that say Sagat vs Fei isn’t bad should really play a top Sagat when they get the chance and see the matchup for how it really is. Most Sagat’s don’t play the matchup correctly but the ones that do will show you why it’s so bad.
The problem with HK.CW is that against Sagat, even if you manage to dodge the first one you have to either throw out a second one the instant you land, or eat another tiger shot. Problem with throwing another one out on reaction is, like you say… eating a DP instead. Not to mention Sagat might delay the tiger shot by even a little bit and hit you during your non-invuln frames. It’s lose-lose.
To me, HK.CW isn’t ideal for avoiding projectiles. It’s good for avoiding corner pressure, and good for avoiding throw attempts. Even if you eat a cr.HK after either, it’s probably better than whatever you had coming otherwise.
Randomly answering most stuff on this page
I think that HK CW is stupidly bad, only good thing about it is the combo followup but still, its startup is slower than a whiffed throw and its hitbox is too high to even hit some standing opponents properly. I’d like the startup to get back to 18f and reduce the hitstun on cl.hp so the infinite won’t work.
The Sagat matchup just sucks. Sagat is great at punishing Fei’s moves, Fei’s crouching hitbox is large so tiger knees works good on Fei and TK destroys Fei’s focus which is probably the best focus in the game. EX CW has trouble punishing low tiger shots since CW hits too high. Sagat’s normals have tons of priority over Fei and flame kick doesn’t hit well upwards so dealing with Sagat’s j.mp is hard.
Gief is even worse. Gief wins over Fei at pokiing with st.mp (which beats all of Fei’s moves except for cr.hp, which is 30 frames total and cr.mk), st.lk, EX green hand and sweeps. Also Fei can’t crouch under lariat.
A couple of months ago I started to use Honda and it’s so painfully obvious that Fei long lacks good options to win. Fei has exactly 5 good things which are the command throw, the focus, the super (400 damage, easy hitconfirm off cr.mk for 480), free safe jump after ex flame kick on most characters and the EX CW (it’s really only useful for punishing the shotos’ and Sim’s fireballs but you get the cl.mp, EX CW combo on Sagat, Chun and some others which is nice). These are the 5 things that keep Fei from the absolute bottom tier and instead puts him in like, Ken tier (not totally useless but still bad).