No we get it. We just think its total dog shit. It’s garbage story telling in our opinions. Your welcome to disagree but we get the point.
The theme of the game is hate. It worked. We hate all these people.
Why are you baffled that people hate these characters and story when you say the point was to hate these characters and story?
There’s plenty of games with happy go lucky, relatable characters bro. There’s nothing wrong with a character you play as being a less than ideal human being.
And nah, the theme of the game isn’t just hate. Again, a surface level understanding of it’s themes.
Right now I’m just getting the impression you don’t like the character and what they do, which is the whole point, but you use that as evidence of bad writing. I just disagree. shrug
No there isnt, there are lots of protagonists who aren’t ideal human beings but they find some measure of redemption through the narrative. Mac Payne is a shitty human being who handles his problems in a really shitty way but he eventually comes to terms with it and attempts his best at what is right. Max admits he failed to protect an entire family in MP3, but the least he can do is stop the corrupt cops and cartel that are killing everyone. It’s the minor atonement he can muster in the face of massive failure.
No one in this story does this and when the one time they do it’s way too fucking late to matter. Ellie doesn’t attempt to atone or do right or be better, she just goes home and looks at all the shit she pissed away. There’s no redemption, no attempt at doing better just “I fucked up…the end.”
Meh.
Edit: Yea because I do think its bad writing. In fact i think its awful writing.
But you are welcome to disagree. You don’t see me here telling you you don’t understand or misinterpret or anythinf. You’re welcome to like it as I am welcome to dislike it.
Meh, we just disagree then. You have this vindictive mindset that makes you think killing Abby would’ve been the right thing to do, which ironically is the message the game is trying to fight till the very end and actually delivers on fighting that message.
I find it funny that you see the ending as pointless, despite the fact that Ellie ultimately does the right thing. Killing Abby would betray everything they spent the game setting up. She’s not redeemed and the game doesn’t act like she is, that’s all you bro. She makes the right choice despite being a terrible person. That’s what’s profound about it.
I don’t care if you like or dislike the story itself, but I don’t see why you’d expect no resistance when you actively gloss over huge elements in the story to get mad that it didn’t play out like every other revenge story on the planet, lol.
I don’t give a shit about Abby because the game made her unlikable from the start and tried to manufacture sympathy for her after she killed Joel. I tuned myself out from her story pretty damn early. Doesn’t help she stays a sociopath and her supporting cast is just as unlikable as she is. There was nothing worth investing in imo.
Incredible. I haven’t accused of any kind of mindset this entire convo but you have accused me of thinking certain ways multiple times. I am not vindictive. I don’t think killing Abby would have been the right thing to do at all, just like I think Abby killing Joel was absolutly the wrong thing to do, 0 context for why her old man got got. Ellie should have stayed her ass on that farm and loved with her lover and baby, maybe grow enough to understand why Joel did what he did for her.
My argument is her “ending the cycle of revenge” is absolute bullshit because 1, she already had a mountain do dead people behind her, what makes Abby so special at the last second? And 2 said mountain of bodies behind her habe people thay care about them to, if out of no where Abby can show up and kill Joel what on earth makes you think no ones gonna come for Ellie? She didn’t end shit, she perpetuated it on a large scale to the point she could easily have a long list of enemies now, so much so it would be irresponsible to return to her little community, or ever find her lover and kid again. She’s marked forever.
No I don’t see it as pointless, I just find it profoundly dumb and naive.
They already betrayed what the game is setting up when she leaves her farm and kills an ass load of people to get to Abby. Sparring Abby is put on this pedestal that makes no sense because she’s another person like everyone else and Ellie killed a ton of people. Abby is no more special then anyone else she’s just treated as so in order for the ending to try and make some semblance sense.
Yea see where we are disagreeing on this is her making the right choice right then has any real meaning behind it when she has a path of corpses leading up to Abby. It doesn’t matter to me she makes the right choice at the last second cuz all she did was spare 1 person after killing many many others to get to this person. Sparing that last person doesn’t matter to me. It’s far too late to be meaningful. No one cares about murderer who comes to his sense on the last victim when he’s murdered multiple before that moment. It’s only meaningful to the last victim. [quote=“MARTIAN, post:365, topic:591217”]
I don’t care if you like or dislike the story itself, but I don’t see why you’d expect no resistance when you actively gloss over huge elements in the story to get mad that it didn’t play out like every other revenge story on the planet, lol.
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Except you very clearly do care. I’m bot glossing over anything. I’m looking at exactly what these two people did and the things they did are irredeamingly awful and the idea I’m supposed to take a profound message from the end of it is a joke imo. There isnt anything deep here, two shitty people went to war with eachother over shit they barely understood and they destroyed a tons of lives in the process but at least Ellie ended the cycle of revenge in the end, but o my if you disregard the pile of dead bodies behind her when she had her epiphany. Those people have people to. Why do you think the cycle is over, any of those people’s friends or relatives could be the next Abby. To think the cycle is over because Ellie let Abby go is foolish and naive with the world ND set up with these games.
Also I’m not mad Martian. Why do people always have to attribute emotions to this shit? I’ve never played either of these games. I watched my brother play the first and someone online play the second. It’s why I don’t comment on the games quality or anything, just the writing. I think the writing here fails on multiple levels. I’m not mad. I’m not even disappointed, I’m not attached to these games. I have more emotional attachment to the goofy nonsense that is DMCs story then this series.
I’m not mad, I’m not even disappointed. I just think it was bad.
I feel like “the mountain of bodies the player leaves behind” is a complete cop out talking point. There’s a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required for the player’s actions during the gameplay portions of the game. You can even get through portions of the game without killing a lot of people, from what I can tell. This was never an issue in TLOU1 but then suddenly became an issue in TLOU2 as a way to criticize the story. We all know jobber NPCs don’t matter in any game. They just serve as an obstacle for your objective. It’s very strange to put these NPCs on a pedestal like they all of a sudden matter to the story. If we do want to humor this angle, however, no one belonging to the Wolves or Seraphites knew who Ellie and her friends were. Abby and crew went out to find Joel in secret because they knew Isaac would never approve a petty revenge mission. Throughout Seattle, Ellie and crew were essentially nameless faces because both the Wolves and Seraphites had no idea who they were. By the end of the game, the only people that knew Ellie and crew’s names/faces were either dead or left Seattle.
I’ll be perfectly honest though I really doubt anyone that says they may have liked Abby more if they built Abby up from the start and then she later killed Joel. People had a huge emotional attachment to Joel, myself included, but many could not let go that he got killed, period. People would have bent over backwards to justify hating her regardless of how her story may have been written because she killed Joel.
There was another point I wanted to bring up but forgot while I was writing about the other points in my post. Oops. Oh well.
The NPCs matter because Naughty Dog went out of their way to get the player to give a shit a about them. How they call the names of the buddies they see you slaughter, getting emotional when you kill their dogs and all the gargling sounds an enemy makes when you kill them. All of it is done to humanize the red shirts. So no, it’s not a cop out.
The only cop out here is this one. They set up a realistic world with realistic consiquences but im supposed to push that aside to suspend my disbelief in order for a hollow moral to ring true in the end? Nope. Sorry. Im taking the world ND set up for the world it is and in this world she left a mountain of dead behind her but also somehow ended the cycle of revenge to? Which is it? You can’t have yoyr cake and eat it to.
Youre the one coping out right now.
ND went out of their way to try and make their NPCs matter so I’m gonna take them on their intent. You are again copping out in order to justify the narrative they tried to tell and for a lot of people didn’t do a good job with it for all the reasons ND bent over backwards for. “They have names, faces, people call out to them when they die. When you kill a dog we want you to feel bad.”
It was not the intention for the NPCs to not matter, they wanted them to matter and be seen as people so I will take them at their intent. With that intent the mountain of bodies ABSOLUTLY matters and to disregard that intent is to make a cop out excuse to make the plot work. Those where people with lives, friends and family. That was the intent. So that means they have people that care about them, and who will be upset they where killed. Some of them might come for Ellie like Abby came for Joel. NPCs matter now because ND went out of their way to make them matter which wasn’t the case in TLOU1. Their intent when making this game matters.
What cycle of revenge has ended here? I mean really.
I would like to add that Abby’s father was a nobody NPC you killed as Joel in the first game and that came to bite him in the ass. So discount that random Jimmy or Jenny you kill as Ellie won’t have a loved one that won’t come for her if we get a part 3.
Who if i remember right Joel tried not to kill but had to when dude went for a gun.
Lol, “accusing”. You literally just called Ellie a pussy for not pulling the trigger in a previous post. I think vindictive is a pretty apt word all things considered. I’m not “accusing” you of anything, I’m literally going off stuff you said only moments ago.
Obviously I’m not saying she’s ended all forms of revenge in the world and everything that was wrong is right now. When you paint it that way it’s certainly childish, yeah. All of these characters leave bodies in their wake. All of them. Ellie’s choice means something BECAUSE of all the irredeemable things she does leading up to it. She’s choosing to end a cycle of revenge that Joel started. That’s the point. It’s a sad ending.The glimmer of light in that ending is that she somehow still managed to spread the same mercy that Abby showed her in the previous act. Ellie is not a good person by the end of the game, it doesn’t pretend otherwise.
Not much more I can say. If you watched the game from start to finish and that’s your take, then hey, that’s your take.
I didn’t call her a pussy. I said she pissed out. Not the same thing.
Why? What makes me vindictive?
having or showing a strong or unreasoning desire for revenge.
Word describes Ellie pretty well tho.
Well accept of being vindictive for some reason.
And attributing emotions to it that I don’t have. You coming at me as a person and not the argument I am making.
I’m not saying you said that. You said “Ended the circle of revenge” and I’m calling bullshit on your position because it’s only ended between Ellie and Abby…maybe. she might come back. There is a high chance someone from her crew will come for Ellie for revenge. What circle of revenge has been closed here? It only works if you ignore all the other people she killed. That’s the problem with your argument imo. It requires one ignore all the other people and focus on just these two to work which makes no sense as Abby is literally unknown revenge come for Joel over an “unimportant NPC” from TLOU1. We are just supposed to forget that now with all the people Ellie killed getting to Abby? That makes no sense. In fact it literally contradicts the catalyst that set this entire story up from the get go. A no name NPCs daughter came for revenge putting a massive hole in “NPCs don’t matter” arguments. He was literally a nobody to the players whose daughter makes him into a somebody. We are just supposed to ignore that with all the NPCs Ellie kills? Nonsense.
I’m not even trying to paint it as that. Not looking for the world to be right. I’m painting it as “This little section of the world is way worse off then it was a couple days ago because two people who don’t know why shit was done the way it was are at war with eachother and kill a bunch of people and perpetuate the violence and revenge that is somehow ended by the end but only if you ignore all the people killed to get to that point.” The revenge is still on. Those people where killed because of the “circle of revenge started by Joel” as you put it and to tho k it’s over just because Ellie and Abby decided not to murder eachother in the final moments doesn’t mean the circle is over. Thia doesnt stop with them. They arent the only two involved so to act like they have final say is foolish imo. There are easily people who could come for Ellie over all the other people killed and that’s still the circle that started with Joel.
Like seriously this is part of why I don’t like the ending. The game spends all this time telling you the NPCs are people with loves and the ending rolls around and I’m supposed to accept the violence stops at these two? Naw man. That spits in the face of the games message that NPCs are people to. That means they have shit about them and people they know we don’t see, just like Abbys father had a daughter that was hella pissed Joel killed her old man even tho she’s never mentioned, hinted at, nothing in TLOU1.
To think the cycle of revenge and violence is over because those two decided to stop there on the beach is naive and foolish imo. It completely disregards the catalist for why this story even happened in the first place. A nameless nobodies daughter was pissed he was killed and went looking for the killer. That’s the boat Ellie is in now and her body count is huge, and not for survival, or self defense, or anything like but for revenge. Joel killed a guy he tried to talk into walking away so he could save Ellie from a procedure that probably won’t work and will kill her. Ellie murdered a bunch of people to get at one individual. That’s gonna come back to bite her in the ass if ND sticks to the world they created and go for MkIII and unlike with Joel who had real moral reasons to do what he did, I can’t say I’ll feel too bad for Ellie. She brought this on herself.
I agree that it’s a sad ending but I don’t think the moral message it’s trying to tell is earned, only works if you ignore a lot of other messages the game tries to tell you, and is rather naive in general as to “closed circle of revenge” imo. It’s not over. People will come for her (or should if the writers stick to what they have created.) I think the moral message is wishy washy at best and falls apart when you analyse the actions taken to get to the end point.
That flies in the face of Naughty Dog was going for. They made a point to show that the NPCs have family and friends. They call out their names when they are killed. They wanted the player to fill the weight of every kill because every NPC is a “living person with family and friends.” The cop out is hand waving away the mountain of bodies when the developer specifically engineered the game for them to matter. If you like the game that’s fine. But don’t dismiss what @Radiantsilvergun3 's point because you can’t counter it. It bothers him more than bothers you. Just agree to disagree. Why does this game get people all up in their feelings?
Co-Director Andy Newman says
" All of the human enemies in the game have names, "
"These aren’t just faceless goons that you’re fighting against, these are real people. "
"It’s all in service of making the violence feel that much more real,"
They wanted you to feel bad. To think of these as real people. So I’m going to take them at their intent and I think everyone else should to if they are going to try and analyse the story of this game with any kind of weight and merit totheir thoughts. These aren’t nameless faceless goons to be mowed down. This ain’t a James Bond game. They serve a narrative and emotional purpose beyond the gameplay.
If you think Ellie can kill that many people in that small a space and no one find out she was the one who did it and that the revenge is going to end on that beach then I dunno what to tell you, and if ND goes with that then they betrayed their own intentions imo.
The sauce for my quotes
https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/last-of-us-2-npc-naming-system-player-feelings/amp/
@MARTIAN you could articulate a lot of stuff I loved about this game much better than I could. I read a lot of your posts from today thinking “that is EXACTLY how I felt!” but I just couldn’t put it into words like you could.
To be clear, I actually think its great you both really like it. I’m not trying to say anyone is wrong, just that’s how I felt experiencing it and that was my take away from it. I don’t see it the same way you do. The only part I take contention with is the idea I didn’t nderstand it, grasp it’s concepts, or I have an irrational hatred of it (Vindictive) when none of that is true. I just didn’t feel the story earned it’s deep moments or commentary. It missed the mark for me.
But man there’s a lot of stuff out there thay misses the mark for me that a lot of people really love (RTS games and DOTA, like wtf?) And that’s pretty awesome cuz there’s lots of shit out there to enjoy. That’s cool you know?
Never, even once, implied this at all.
Instead of repeating myself ad nauseam, I’m just gonna ask that you re-read the points I already made.
Ok that’s cool. Not really saying you said that specifically, wasn’t even really aimed at anyone, was just the tail end of my thoughts on thst particular train of thought. Sorry if it felt aimed at you. It wasnt. My bad.
The beauty of the last of us 2, is the moral lesson it imparts in the end.
The lesson that it’s NEVER too late to take the moral high ground, no matter how many bystanders and pregnant women you kill along the way. As long as you spare the life of the person you REALLY wanted to kill all along? When faced with that revelation, the pregnant chick you killed earlier don’t even mean shit. Ammiright?
Gee thanks, last of us 2! 