The inevitable tier thread

[fatboy]

This is way too much work.

Here my ranking idea.
This is based, on players facing each other with equal skill levels obviously.

3 categories:

1. Beats
2. About even
3. Loses.

Look it works:

Boxer is about even with Sim.
Honda beats Cammy.
Blanka loses to Boxer.

Try it will all the match ups. It works just fine.

[1hitparry]

So that’s what it comes down to. Whether or not we need a 10 or 20 point system to convey matchup difficulty.

I think the 11-9 thing was a joke. Also, we haven’t started using numbers like pi or e, or started delving into the complex plane. So things seem okay so far.

[damdai]

I think the 11-9 thing was a joke. Also, we haven’t started using numbers like pi or e, or started delving into the complex plane. So things seem okay so far.

Read between the lines my man! Expanding a 10 point scale to include halves turns it into a 20 point scale.

[Homer_Pimpson]

This is way too much work.

Here my ranking idea.
This is based, on players facing each other with equal skill levels obviously.

3 categories:

1. Beats
2. About even
3. Loses.

Look it works:

Boxer is about even with Sim.
Honda beats Cammy.
Blanka loses to Boxer.

Try it will all the match ups. It works just fine.

This is basically what I said a few pages ago, I even posted up a tier list :woot: It may not be as exact as some people would prefer, but I think it works. Personally I think this is a great indicator of overall character strength or weakness, without getting too heavy into theory fighter.

As long as people are in agreement about who has an advantage over who, then I think this works well enough for a tier list.

[FreshOJ]

This is basically what I said a few pages ago, I even posted up a tier list :woot: It may not be as exact as some people would prefer, but I think it works. Personally I think this is a great indicator of overall character strength or weakness, without getting too heavy into theory fighter.

As long as people are in agreement about who has an advantage over who, then I think this works well enough for a tier list.

But, again, going back to the original reason why we were getting into using numbers in the first place, does that system actually convey how difficult a matchup is? Does it convey that certain characters actually have a chance at beating other characters?

More importantly…will it give a sense that this game is more balanced than Marvel Super Heroes? (I.e. any character is playable in this game)

I think that’s the point that some people may be missing when I originally suggested that a 10-point chart be created. The idea was to see just how tightly balanced HDR is. Gamest used a 10-point chart for Marvel Super Heroes. I figured that players could come up with a similar chart. In looking at what’s been done so far, I really like the last update of the chart that damdai originally posted…with the half-decimals. I think it gives precise data without going so detailed that it records differences that we really can’t discern. Whether it implies that we’re talking about 20 games or not shouldn’t be the focus. The true focus should be whether or not the chart truly tells you how difficult the matchup is in a way that is both legible and perceptible.

Look at it this way…just the fact that half-decimals are being used to describe these matchups should tell you that we’re playing a rather well-balanced fighting game. I’m thankful for that.

[Coth_X]

This is way too much work.

Here my ranking idea.
This is based, on players facing each other with equal skill levels obviously.

3 categories:

1. Beats
2. About even
3. Loses.

Look it works:

Boxer is about even with Sim.
Honda beats Cammy.
Blanka loses to Boxer.

Try it will all the match ups. It works just fine.

Lol, but does that mean ken is about even to ryu, or does ryu beat ken. Is 5.5-4.5 even or does it mean we say ryu wins?

[arstal]

One issue that no one takes into account on tier chars is char frequency.

Having a bad matchup against T.Hawk is a lot different then having a bad matchup against say Boxer.

10 is easier to do the match then 20, even with halves- so the 10 should stay. We’re not Mayans.

I also think we need a universal grading system of viability- whiich is where letter grades come in
+'s and -'s should be used

SSS- ST Akuma
SS- potentially bannable (2k3 Duo Lon)
S- clearly dominant (SF4 Sagat)
A- this char will win his share off tournies
B- this char can win tournies without a lot of luck needed
C- this char will rarely win tournies
D- Sean tier
E- Momoko tier
F- only way you win is if you’re facing a complete scrub

I think both are necessary, as numerical matchups, and tourney viability can be too different things. Cammmy may be mid in HDR, but the freqiency of Hondas may put her less tourney viable then say, Guile, who she may be higher then numerically. (not saying Cammy> Guile overall necessarily, just using an example)

[fatboy]

Lol, but does that mean ken is about even to ryu, or does ryu beat ken. Is 5.5-4.5 even or does it mean we say ryu wins?

It means they’re… 'bout even.

[VirtuaFighterFour]

I also think we need a universal grading system of viability- whiich is where letter grades come in
+'s and -'s should be used

SSS- ST Akuma
SS- potentially bannable (2k3 Duo Lon)
S- clearly dominant (SF4 Sagat)
A- this char will win his share off tournies
B- this char can win tournies without a lot of luck needed
C- this char will rarely win tournies
D- Sean tier
E- Momoko tier
F- only way you win is if you’re facing a complete scrub

You can’t have a universal tier system for all games. Four tiers in VF is not the same as four tiers in 3S is not the same as ST and so forth. Virtua Fighter has every character ranked S through C since VF4 and for nearly every revision. So Virtua Fighter usually has around three or four tiers. Every character in VF4, EVO, FT, 5, and 5R has consistently won regional and major tournaments. So the best and worst characters have all won tournaments.

Virtua Fighter has extreme balance. Nothing comes close. Yet just look at this post on VFDC where the person lists four tiers for the latest revision. Despite having four tiers in VF…look at the success that the worst characters have compared to the best. It’s not a huge gap. Every character in VF has a legitimate chance of winning a tournament yet there are four tiers. Now look at the difference between 3S Chun and Sean, or ST O.Sagat and N.Hawk, or HDR Ryu and Zangief. Can you see that every character in ST, HDR, or 3S has a legitimate chance of winning a single elimination tournament?

When is the last time a Q or Remy won a major single character tournament? A tournament that was 1v1 with no character switching allowed. When is the last time N.Hawk or Cammy won a major tournament? Will R.Cammy or R.Zangief ever win an HDR tournament that doesn’t allow character switching?

Remember, just because someone chose Cammy as a counter-pick, doesn’t mean that she made top 8 on her own. If someone chose Cammy all the way to the finals and won then that’s a different story. But the odds of that happening seem slim.

Official SSF2T: HD Remix General Discussion Thread

Tournaments that allow counterpicking won’t give results that will make an accurate tier list.

When at X-Mania 7 a pair of O.Hawk players took 3rd place, O.Hawk was changed to the ‘A’ tier. It’s not like the players made their way to the end of the tournament using O.Sagat then switched to O.Hawk to get 3rd place. They played O.Hawk from game one to the end. No counter picking.

So O.Hawk basically got an ‘A’ ranking for taking 3rd place in a tournament. The ‘D’ tier in VF is a tier that consistently wins tournaments. The ‘D’ tier in 3S almost never wins tournaments ever. You can’t universally rank these games. S, A, B, C, have drastically different meanings.

It is very rare to see a Zangief player or T.Hawk player make it to the finals in ST/HDR and never switch characters. What’s the furthest a Zangief has made it at EVO? Kuni taking 3rd at EVO2K4 without switching characters? Has a T.Hawk ever made top 8?

Look at the Arcadia rankings for 2008 for Super Turbo. S through C tier. But has a Cammy or N.Hawk ever won a 1v1 tournament on the same level that a C tier character from VF has? No. Are Cammy and Hawk as bad as the C tier in Third Strike? No. They have far better chance at winning a single elimination 1v1 tournament than a C tier character from 3S.

S through D has a very different meaning for every game and HDR certainly deserves its own set of tiers and meanings.

[arstal]

Then, I’d argue no char should be ranked inferior then B tier in VF5. The advantage of my idea is that it’s consistent so people would know what B tier means.

Having consistency here would allow tourney viability to be consistent. C tier in SNK and C tier in VF are vastly different in terms of competitiveness.

There is no reason why there shouldn’t be consistency.

[jchensor]

IF we can define a character’s matchups in an accurate way that indicates that some are more difficult than others (4.5-5.5 vs. 4-6), then why choose a ranking system that obscures this and instead communicates that the matches are even (4-6 vs. 4-6)?
I lose data.

Q: "What is Dictator hardest matchup?"
A: "Chun Li, it is 6-4 in Chun’s favor."
Q: "Isn’t Ryu vs. Dictator also 6-4 vs. Ryu’s favor?"
A: "Yes, but it’s a tougher 6-4 vs. Chun."
Q: “Obviously.”

But here’s the thing.

Measuring height and gravity and distances is an EXACT science. There is no exact science to match ups.

In that example you gave for Bison’s hardest match up, if they are both 6-4, that’s what they are. It’s like Damdai said, what if you had a character ranked at 5.5-4.5 that is actually EASIER than Ryu. Now what? Is Ryu 5.75-4.25?

I said this in a post earlier, but by the time you get to that 6-4 and 6-4, where Ryu is slightly easier than Chun, the difference becomes moot because Street Fighter is such an organic thing. You can’t measure it. It’s not damage. It’s not distance in pixels. It’s win ratio, and SO MANY FACTORS go into it that by the time you get to 6-4, you really mean that if two experts played a 10 game set, the win ratio will most likely fall anywhere between 8-2 and 4-6. It’s so nebulous. It’s NOT an exact science by any means.

Anyhow, I don’t care if we use fractions or not anymore, I just think that the argument that it needs to be exact is flawed.

• James

[zass]

Then, I’d argue no char should be ranked inferior then B tier in VF5. The advantage of my idea is that it’s consistent so people would know what B tier means.

Having consistency here would allow tourney viability to be consistent. C tier in SNK and C tier in VF are vastly different in terms of competitiveness.

There is no reason why there shouldn’t be consistency.

That’s silly, because then the VF tier list becomes:
**
A tier: Everyone**

Or, in the 10 point matchup system, the vf chart becomes:
**
anyone vs anyone: 5-5**

That’s not very useful. So I think different tiers for different games makes perfect sense.

[VirtuaFighterFour]

uhhhhh…I’ve kinda got a reputation for being “cruel” these days, so I probably shouldn’t be asking this…but do you even play virtua fighter? Like against other people?

I used to play VF4 against people offline constantly when I lived in New York City and went to school. And now I play people on X-Box Live in VF5 Online. So yes. I have over 10,000 VF matches against human opponents easily.

There are numerous games that have balance approaching virtua fighter and there are also numerous huge mismatches in virtua fighter, about the same level of super turbo.

If there are such games then name them and give me the same raw data that I linked above. Just because someone made a chart with Guilty Gear or Super Turbo attached to it doesn’t mean that those games are as balanced as Virtua Fighter. The data I linked above consists of thousands and thousands of official tournament matches. What game is there where every character has won tournaments (without counter-picking)?

And remember, a Virtua Fighter chart with four tiers is far more balanced than any other game with a chart with four tiers. So don’t say “here’s a chart with four tiers”. Prove to everyone that the game is as balanced.

One such matchup, that’s easy to find is lion vs akira. On youtube you can find tons of video’s of the arguably the best virtua fighter player of all time loosing to scrubby akira’s.

:yawn: You don’t know anything about Virtua Fighter. :yawn:

One of the reasons so many characters have won tournaments is blind luck. With ring outs, and different variables like walls that collapse, variance is bound to happen. Not saying that’s a good thing or bad thing, it’s just the way things are. Kinda similar to the dizzy system in ST but wayyyy more prevelant. Not really comparable to HDR.

:yawn: People won tournaments based on blind luck? :yawn:
:yawn: Rings outs are random? No. Dizzy is proven random. :yawn:

If you really wanna get technical, virtua fighter was never popular because of balance, it was popular because of the new elements it brought into play (meaningful camera angle changes, every character had at least two fighting stances, every character had millions of left and right handed pokes.) Kinda like marvel in that aspect, millions of things to learn. I seriously doubt it’s popularity had anything to do with balance.

:yawn: Who said anything about popularity? :yawn:

This is a tier thread. Stop posting here.

[gridman]

shit just got real REAL fast up in here

need some birdman talkin shit.

[Coth_X]

Your whole online persona is strange!!! I don’t really know how else to put it. You really have dedicated your whole online persona to talking about a game virtually NOBODY in America ever played, and is basically dead in Japan. ** In a forum of another game**. :xeye: To make matters worse, in the virtua fighter 5 thread you’ve wrote countless posts about how it’s not as “balanced” and “deep” as vf4. Basically bitching and complaining about nothing. like…your posts aren’t necessarily wrong but they’re strange and meaningless. Get a life.

To make matters worse, you NEVER mention anything that’s actually unique, exciting, fun about Virtua Fighter. It’s just deep and balanced and other games should be more like it. sigh It’s one thing to disagree with my thoughts and explain why, but your arguments are just stupid! I don’t think game balance is over rated but people like you take things to an extreme.

:lol: Watch out! He’s gonna rally his allies behind him, and neg bomb you like they did me. :lol:

[Norieaga]

I have an edit to make:

I’ve been facing many great Balrog’s lately, and the low dash + headbutt is a pain for Cammy. I no longer think it is 6-4 but maybe 5-5. Perhaps slight advantage Cammy, but you really must play this match carefully. Balrog can headbutt a Cammy out of anything, and reactions must be quick after the headbutt so as not to get tick’d.

[VirtuaFighterFour]

There are numerous games that have balance approaching virtua fighter and there are also numerous huge mismatches in virtua fighter, about the same level of super turbo.

Prove it. Show me the data. Show me the raw numbers. Show me the tier lists. Show me anything beyond you talking complete nonsense. You sound like you’ve never played Virtua Fighter competitively. :yawn::yawn:

You really have dedicated your whole online persona to talking about a game virtually NOBODY in America ever played, and is basically dead in Japan.

Virtua Fighter 5 is the official fighting game of the World Cyber Games. Virtua Fighter 5R has never been been out of the top ten most played arcade fighting games in Japan. No one plays it? Please. It has a bigger scene than many other series. VF has been at EVO three times even. Saying that that no one plays it is ridiculous. :yawn::yawn:

Again. Instead of pretending you know something. Prove it. Post your proof that any game is as balanced as Virtua Fighter.

[jchensor]

I have an edit to make:

I’ve been facing many great Balrog’s lately, and the low dash + headbutt is a pain for Cammy. I no longer think it is 6-4 but maybe 5-5. Perhaps slight advantage Cammy, but you really must play this match carefully. Balrog can headbutt a Cammy out of anything, and reactions must be quick after the headbutt so as not to get tick’d.

I never understood this one. Why do people think Cammy beats Balrog in this game now? I know Sirlin “counter picked” Graham at Evo, but do people belive Cammy beats Balrog because she does or because Sirlin said so? From when I was playing HDR, nothing felt drastically different about the match. This figt used to be awful for Cammy. What changed to make it suddenly in her favor, even slightly? Is the better Drill that much of a factor? Can’t Balrog still low Jab that Drill into oblivion like he did in VST?

• James

[Norieaga]

I never understood this one. Why do people think Cammy beats Balrog in this game now? I know Sirlin “counter picked” Graham at Evo, but do people belive Cammy beats Balrog because she does or because Sirlin said so? From when I was playing HDR, nothing felt drastically different about the match. This figt used to be awful for Cammy. What changed to make it suddenly in her favor, even slightly? Is the better Drill that much of a factor? Can’t Balrog still low Jab that Drill into oblivion like he did in VST?

• James

If you start the cr. mk > drill, you pretty much drill 'Rogs out of their dashes. I’ve been killing great 'Rogs left and right, so I thought it was advantage Cammy. Lately I’ve been facing a particular user’s 'Rog, and he’s figured out a counter to that shit. HOWEVER, I’ve also adapted to his counter now so you may see me making yet another edit soon.

5-5 Cammy, maybe 5.5-4.5

[Silver_Rain_007]

If you start the cr. mk > drill, you pretty much drill 'Rogs out of their dashes. I’ve been killing great 'Rogs left and right, so I thought it was advantage Cammy. Lately I’ve been facing a particular user’s 'Rog, and he’s figured out a counter to that shit. HOWEVER, I’ve also adapted to his counter now so you may see me making yet another edit soon.

5-5 Cammy, maybe 5.5-4.5

I can’t speak to the matchup in ST, but I can say in HDR, Cammy does pretty well against Rog. C.Mk can keep Rog at just the right distance to open up the rest of the arsenal, and gives Cammy plenty of baiting opportunities to get rog out of charge and to punish. I mean I didn’t win the match, but I was able to take rounds off of Afro’s Balrog, and I would say in terms of skill he is (Beyond) infinitely better than I am as a player so my opinion is based on personal experience too but I think its a pretty darn fair matchup