Therefore you cannot honestly make that claim. If we are to assume that all fighters are progressing at the same rate for argument’s sake then an SF3 Sagat would still own an SF3 Chun-li. The difference between SF5 Chun-li and SF3 Chun-li is only a few short years, nothing dramatic as far as we know happened to Chun-li that would push her that high up the tier list in such a short time. Furthermore, the presumption that Chun-li beat Urien is also premature because we don’t have a reference point after 3s to know which endings happened absolutely. We are left guessing what happened at the end of 3S in the same way we were left guessing about what really happened at the end of SF2 - Until SF4 arrived.
You are also correct in saying that Vega let Cammy beat him. If you play Vega’s SFA3 arcade mode, Cammy is his rival fight and he beats her but takes pity on her. So who beat who? The point is it doesn’t matter. What matters about their rival fight is the following, that Bison sent Vega to take care of Cammy at one point in time but Vega hesitated to finish her for one reason or another. Bottomline, Cammy owes Vega her life in a twisted way and that’s that. Who actually won the fight is irrelevant to the canon continuity. The fight is a means in the Street Fighter universe, not an ends.
I agree but I don’t make this list, I just copy&pasted it.
SFV isn’t included now,because the game isn’t out, then it would need months of discussion before people agree with something,then they had to update it and then I had to translate the reasons why they changed it, it takes time.
For Hugo. Yes and No. Hugo has one major flaw, his intellegence. In SF3 he has Poison, who is basicly giving him commands from the background, what actually makes him dangerous. Without Poison, he is as smart as Dan strong. Thats why he is 2x in that list 1x with poison and 1x without. Against fast opponents he will also just go out of stamina,power has it’s price.
Average fighter means in the case of SF someone who would be able to qualifiy. So he has to be at least as strong as the D-E-Tiers. Above average fighter are C-Tier. B-Tier is World Class. S are either people that allways fought to survive(Rolento,Cody,Guy,Cammy) or have enhancemeants that makes them much stronger(Cammy,Juri.) or sometimes special powers(Rose,Gouken).
Backing down I see. It doesn’t matter if you didn’t make them. You argued for them, showed value for them, and agreed with them. That’s all one needs to know to understand and confirm your (and your Japanese friends’ by extension) poor grasp on SF’s canon. Your ignorance of Occam’s razor is painfully blatant as well, as you keep making assumptions one after the other, most of which are baseless, and tainted with confirmation bias. Just going over your description of Hugo’s fighting potential and your comparison of him to Dan gives me a headache. Your breakdown of what the letter grade tiers in fighting games is also completely wrong. S tier is not “people who always fought to survive” and B-tier is not “world class”. This is completely retarded, but I guess this is not you. Rather this is the Japanese fanforum who are completely retarded, right? Because you just ‘translated’. Anyway, allow me…
S Tier = God/Broken/Overpowered/Beyond Powerful Tier
A Tier = Most Powerful, Extremely Strong
B Tier = Very Powerful, Stronger than Most
C = Powerful, Strong
D = Above Average, Moderately Strong
E = Average
F = Weak
This is the common letter grade tier ranking system used in fiction and primarily fighting games. On occasions, the letter ranks themselves are divided up into tiers within tiers (e.g. A+, A, A-). There is no need for double or triple S tiers in the SF universe. If you really want to stretch it, you might be able to get away with SS-tier for Ingrid only. There is also certainly no need for useless words that serve to only overcomplicate things or quell your ego like ‘world class’ or "they have special powers’.
I don’t think Vega is as weak as some assume, yet I wuldn’t consider him one of the strongest, either. He indeed let Cammy live in A3, either by letting her win, beating her and not finishing her, or simply by avoiding the battle altogether. I suspect he is stronger than Cammy, at least at that point in the story, but it’s just a suspicion. I also think Chun-Li is more or less at his level, in the SF2 era at least. All speculation, because the sources we have aren’t that specific, of course.
However, regarding Vega’s strength coming only, or mostly, from his stealth and his weapon, I think that’s very very wrong. Sure, ninjitsu emphasizes stealth, but it’s a hand to hand martial art, first and foremost. The swift kicks, the air grabs, the agility, the quick punches when clawless, he has trained for those things, and is very proficient at them. Is he more lethal when ambushing with his claw on? Sure thing. But he’s very deadly even in one-to one combat with no weapon. I’d say Vega attacking from a successuf ambush with his claw ready is one tier above his actual level, but that’s only proof of how dangerous and proficient he is as an assassin, not proof of him being mediocre or bad without those conditions.
The other issue is the mask. I’m of the opinion that he is as potentially deadly as he is actually weaker with his mask off. With his mask off, he will be much more concerned by not getting hit in the face, but when/if he gets hit, he will get mad, and one of two things will happen: either he will maniacally murder his adversary, or lose all control and fight worse due to rage. Overall, I think making him lose the mask and if possible scratching his beloved face is in favor of his opponent, but has the potential to backfire on them horribly.
Also, a forum full of japanese fans discussing SF story is in the same credibility tier of this very thread: B- (fans talking, nothing more).
You basicly say other opinions are retarded while your own is untouchable.
Just that I don’t pay you credit for a opinion that hasn’t confirmation either, especially who is using rival fights in one post as canon and then says they’re non-canon in a other one.
Again I don’t make this list and it would usualy go:
SSS: ST Akuma
SS:GodTier
S:TopTier
A:HighTier
B:Mid-Hightier
C:Midtier
D:Low-Midtier
E:Lowtier
With my description I actually tried to give it more life, however you can’t see the difference.
You don’t even read.
Hugo is as smart as Dan strong. Hugo has incredible physical strengh, more than any other character in SF. But he is dumb, he can’t deal with speed and has no tactics during a fight, other than “hit the opponent somehow.”
You disagree with the list, cause you want to continue to life in your “Ryu,Akuma,Bison are so strong and totaly op!” world? Ok fine for you, but then make at least viable points that prove them.
When did Ryu won the last time a tournament? Didn’t happen,will never happen.
When was Akumas RD succesfull? Never,will never happen.
Did Bison lost against the finallist in SF2? Yes. Did the OVA happend after that? Yes. Do you still think this is wrong,cause the final fight never happend and everyone was chassing Bison right from the start? Yes.
Will I ever agree with you? No.
Will you disagree with me? Yes.
All you do here is basicly showing your fanfic opinion, like everyone else. If all this is really how it is, knows only Capcom.
If you start a discussing like this,stay fair and don’t try to place you over everyone else.
This is purely your perception. You’re just angry that I disagree with you entirely, and this bothers you it seems. Does my agreement with you validate your opinions in your eyes? Because it really seems to bother you that I disagree with you to the point that you begin name calling me. All this after I specifically told you several pages ago:
“Just because I may disagree with you does not mean you should not share your theories/point of view, and just because I disagree with you doesn’t necessarily mean I am right or that you are wrong even.”
If you are going to submit your theories or opinions, don’t be surprised if it is dismissed. That which is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
Well SF5 is building directly from the foundation laid before it by SF4 (which arguably retconned everything). So SF5 won’t retcon much of what was before it, but it will more likely retcon a lot of what comes after it (SF3).
Man, seriously part of their argument was “Blue Mary uses SAMBO!” and “She was the team leader of the Outlaw Team”. The Blue Mary fanboy-ism was sooo hard. I wish I could find the thread but I don’t even remember what forum the discussion was on.
It was mind-boggling!
As an aside, ANY forum that put together that strength list should be pretty much immediately disregarded. Holy crap that list is duuuuumb!
Hugo’s incredible reach and impressive agility (dude pulls moonsaults, he isn’t a slug) count for a lot. Plus he’s not even particularly called out as ‘slow’ as far as I’ve ever seen. Hugo is dangerous as hell.
…SF1? When he beat the guy considered an emperor of unarmed combat? So…yeah that happened
Um…against Goutetsu when he used the SGS to kill one of the strongest and most experienced masters of unarmed killing arts in the entire world? So…yeah that happened too
Inconclusive. Early info points to Ryu being the one that beat Bison. Several games and retcons later and it looks like NO ONE fought Bison at the end of SF2.
Also that list posted has some totally bizarre oddities on it. Juli and Juni ranked alongside Sagat, Ryu and Urien? Seriously? The 2 girls that need to fight as a team to keep up are ranked alongside the Emperor of Muay Thai, the protagonist of the series and a guy in line to be the literal fighting-god of a giant religion? No. That makes no sense at all.
Some real REAL baffling stuff in that list.
Also, folks, let’s please all calm down. I understand some of these fighters might be peoples waifus but…geez.
This whole debate made me realize how silly tier list are when relating to story based events.
This is exactly what I mentioned a page ago. It would be obvious that if his face were damaged in any way he would throw a fit of rage with his claw. All’s anyone would have to do is; disarm Vega and keep him away from his claw. Which is easier said than done because of his ninjitsu, but someone like Chun or Cammy would be on par in agility and would be able to keep up with Vega.
Its not his strength comes from his claw, its that his claw is integral to being able to quickly maim his opponent with little force. All the ninjas in SF carry some sort of weapon, save for Guy; although he has been trained in the use of swordplay. Taking away Ibuki’s kunai, or Maki’s tonfa wouldn’t take away from their over all skill. It would just inhibit them from slashing or bludgeoning their opponent. Likewise, you take away Vega’s claw and he’s unable to slash or stab at his opponent. His skills are still very deadly unarmed as well, but if he were to become unarmed, I feel Vega would be the type to use his deadly skills to find a way to become armed again. He would preferably finish his opponent off with his claw, especially if any damage were done to his face in the process.
Except now half of Vega’s entire fighting style revolves around non-claw based combat. Remember, Vega’s kicks are impressive and he actually has some high level grappling skills with his suplexes and Barcelona (Izuna) Drop. The claw just kills you faster but he’s shown plenty of skills without it.
It is true that coming up with a story tier list is difficult since we don’t have much to work with. But it is also true that it is not impossible. There have been many tier lists published in this thread’s predecessor and Warrior’s Fate by numerous users that were relatively very accurate. There is sufficient information to accurately gauge the relative ranking of at least the main characters in through out the series this much I know.
I even posted a list why it makes me sure that I’m right. Yet you call 90% of it non-canon and walk away.
If you’re still interested, here is Cammys profile, translated and pretty much accurate:
[details=Spoiler]
Name: Cammy White
Age: 21
Birthday: 6th January
Home: England,London
Bloodtype: B
Height: 162,5
Size: 88,59,88
Weight: 62kg
Hobbys: Knife Throwing
Special Skills: Can use every kind of military Equipmeant,including jets,tanks,all kind of firearms,radios etc.
Fighting Style: Shadaloo Assasin fighting techniques, with influenece from different martial arts.Also influence from her Delta-Red training.
Likes: Cats,Friends
Dislikes: Shadaloo,everything noticeable when sullen
Strenghes: Superhuman Strenght,-Speed,-Stamina,-Reflexes,-Dexterity,fast recovery,above average smart,Combat Expert, Muscle Reader
Weaknesses: Heated personality, Meatshields, her Past
Character Describtion: Cammy is a simple character. She is about overcoming her limits. Every time Cammy has to face someone who is stronger than her, she has to overcome this limit and she will overcome this limit. Beeing the only Street Fighter character who has run two military trainings, Cammy has a natural sense for the battle. She can often see a danger before others can see it, but she sometimes rushs into traps, if she can’t see them (aka C.Viper fight in TTTB). Her Body makes overcoming her limits also easier. Beeing Bisons perfect body replacemeant gave her several strenghs(see Strenghs). Training is also easier for her and her body itself becomes much faster stronger. She can basicly get the same results from one day of training, others would have to train three months for.She is a fast learner and can analyse her opponents with ease.
Her major flaw is her past. Cammy is holding back in allmost every fight. She doesn’t want to become the Killermaschine she was in Shadaloo(she has nightmares about her past). Pitty her opponent is nothing special for her, if she has to fight for real, she will do it and will become a major problem for everyone who stands in her way.
Personality:When in battle, Cammy shows complete focus and determination and often times speaks in a direct and confrontational manner. Outside of battle,however, she speaks very gently and with a great deal of compassion, especially when caring for former members of The Dolls, whom she refers to as her “sisters”. Cammy feels a deep affinity towards cats and is often depicted feeding and caring for cats, perhaps because she’s something of a stray cat herself. Cammy is also burdened by a deep feeling of guilt over having been an assassin for Shadaloo, but she has learned to overcome her feelings of guilt by looking towards the future.[/details]
You’re allowed to disagree, but don’t start to stomp again. Or use Rival Fights as canon source and then declaring others non-canon.
This makes me belive that she can fight ,with the exceptions of some fighters(Bison 1vs1,Akuma,Oro), everyone without beeing in a disadvantage. And even if she would lose a fight, Delta-Red is allways following her, Wolfman and Luwanda would jump in before someone could even try to kill Cammy.
Fair enough from SFV game play’s perspective. I’m just saying from a story perspective someone as effeminate and as narcissistic as Vega would probably rage fit if his face were harmed. He would want to kill his opponent as quick as possible, thus he would use his claw. He if wasn’t armed at the time, then he would fight his way to become armed and finish the job. I’m not saying Vega can’t kill without the claw, I’m saying if he were harmed in some way he didn’t like he would probably prefer to exact revenge using his trademark. It’s just the type of personality I feel he’s been portrayed to have.
I get what your saying, but its just tedious in SF when a lot of the interactions that are given are limited or non canon completely. Especially when it come to gauging a power level with some of the characters. They’re all superhuman to begin with, its just some are more super human than others. Some placements are obvious, but when you move away from the extremes of “weak and powerful” things are more gray than anything. Some of the characters have particular skills which make them unique, but not necessarily powerful in a fight. Some are a mix of unique and powerful, and others are all power. Tier list just don’t do that aspect justice IMO.
Just so you know man, it’s statements like that that make you look like you’re treating Cammy like a waifu instead of a fictional construct. For the record, I guarantee someone like Vega, a bonafide world warrior, would butcher Wolfman or Luwanda like blind baby piglets. Then again, Cammy would beat the bejeezus out of them too.
I think Vega would be more likely to care less about HOW they die so long as they do die if someone were to hurt his face/pride. We, frankly, don’t know if Vega becomes better or worse when he flies into a rage over his face. It is easy to say he might become sloppier…but it’s also easy to say his killing intent might become even stronger and more focused as he no longer unduly protects his face. The ONLY thing we have even close to canon for that is his appearance in Cannon Spike where he doesn’t give a damn about his face and is noted as being “more dangerous than ever”. Now, of course, that’s in no way canon but it does give us some insight (at least more than the absolute nothing we have from in-canon sources).
As I mentioned some time ago in the Fan Fic forums, I do much wider tiers when I consider the SF’ers…and it basically breaks down to Bosses/Main Characters/World Warriors/Rookies/Jokes. Bosses are folks like Bison, main characters include characters like Ryu & Guile & Chun-Li, World Warriors are all the fighters generally considered top-tier in their respective form that aren’t Main Characters (like Zangief, Honda, etc), rookies are the younger folk and jokes are…Dan. There’s plenty of wiggle room within those tiers but it’s far from cut & dry and, of course, always subject to editorial whim.
About that Cammy, Viper, Seth, Juri, Ryu… I believe we have our tiers from the SFIV and SSFIV OVAs
Chun/Cammy/Guile < Juri.
Guile could put up a fight, but he couldn’t handle the Feng Shui Engine’s Ki.
Cammy < Viper < Ryu/Ken < Seth < Bison/Evil Ryu (or Musou Tensei Ryu whatever).
Cammy lost badly to Viper, which, in turn, couldn’t do much to Ryu and Ken. Later, Ryu fought Seth and couldn’t even scratch him before tapping his Evil Ryu powers (which later became some sort of Power of Empty).
Seth, of course, judging by how he is handled by Bison during the endings, is also no match for the shadaloo boss.