who here has access to a copy A2+3, AE2012, and video capturing/recording equipment?
dky it’s so difficult to find a reference material that isn’t a combo/music vid or just plain terrible cell phone quality or even matches that play out like a combo video or a failed one lol… anyway i think i found something that went unnoticed/unmentioned by anyone in here but i need some evidence to support my claim
You intending on making a combo video or something?
no actually i just wanted to do my part and point out a special move missing trait that would require those things to prove because current mentality nowadays. let’s see if any of the knowledge guy players here can guess which one it is?
blood you were one of the guy’s at a loke, do you recall if he could cancel far 5lk? if not that’s the finally change of any significance to his ground game you guy players should be pushing for max range footsie purposes
Positive it can’t . pretty sure we asked for it as well
next to sakura’s being problematic, any confirmation on claw hurtbox corrections?
Though oddly enough that might be one of his better defensive options going for him atm
Will Level 2 Focus Crumple, back dash, Fierce Hozanto work on every one now?
Guess we’ll find out.
:lk: .BSK has mid invincibility. Apart from Honda Headbutt and ground throws, when else would this move grant invincibility?
Rose’s Soul Spiral, a few cr.lps, The 2nd hit of Fei’s Rekka, Psycho Crusher, that’s all i’ve tested anyways
what are some GO-TO Guy frametraps?
cr.lp into cr.mp, cl.mk, or cr.hp. Or TC since that is a 2 frame gap.
@blood: given that there are different methods of for an individual to learning things, will your tutorial consist of interactivity between you and your audience i.e. issuing challenges and exercises that help to point the way toward high level tactics/way of thinking?
coming from an interest in VF4’s fighting system/tutorial engine, i find what currently is in this edition of SF4 to be severely lacking in this dept. and that capcom could use the help where ever they can get it from on this front.
I can attempt to do that, that seems like it would be better if I had the ability to stream though, that way I could schedule it and have it be done at that very moment as to taking a collective points of idea and doing it in a video.
possibly maybe even come up with some structured scenarios to be followed during training and/or in matches? it can only help to elevate the collective understanding of the character i would think, right? And now with online training mode on the horizon, can be designed with this mode in mind even
I can’t seem to find the post anymore, so forgive the lazy question, but where are the hitboxes located for each air command grab again? (ie.: something like lp hitting upwards, mp in front, hp downwards, etc).
LP Below Guy, MP In front, HP Above. EX same as MP
Having played the game at depth for as long as I have and investing in Guy as rigorously as I have, I find myself at an impasse, at least in online matches. To put it bluntly. I’m stuck in mid tier matches. Low tier opponents I can trash and high tier opponents have a habit of playing like gentlemen, so they sometimes give you mistakes and bad presses you can punish.
But in that mid tier I find myself stuck all too often playing against block string loops that have no opportunity for Guy to punish. The worst offenders for me are Yun, Chun Li, Guile, Sakura and Sagat - none of which are seen as Guy’s worst match ups. So some of these matches the struggle starts in the approach. For the latter 4 I just mentions, there is a rather lax and lenient timing of fireball+anti pressure which stops you from punishing constant use of fireball to chip. This is obviously made a lot more difficult by the fact the same aa from the opponent beats any air entry Guy tries to make, but is also safe on whiff if Guy uses d.mp to cut the jump short. This same aa will also beat Guy if he uses his his d.mp to hit them.
It’s not the actual matches that wind me up - it’s actually the advice in this forum that makes me rage, because in these particular matches ups, the advice always pertains to things that don’t happen in a sensible match up, like Guiles who flash kick just because you jumped (haven’t seen one decent Guile move that panicky ever) or fireball spammers who don’t instinctively cover themselves with anti-air any time you jump (because why would they stop?) If these locked down matches are supposed to be a struggle, then I’ll accept that, but of all the block string loops I’ve seen, these are consistently the ones in which I can’t punish the loops without the opponent genuinely making a mistake or arbitrarily diverting from the chipping block string to do something flashy.
As I mentioned before, those are the main offenders, but I’ve gotten into countless matches where I know exactly what my opponent’s routine is about to be. That’s because they are aware it has an end which Guy cannot punish; a backdash too far away for Ex HZO and too quick for run slide, jump attacks that are in too awkward a position to be punished.
Now, I’m aware that at least one person on this forum is going to respond and tell me about how they don’t have a problem in these match-ups. That’s great. Tell me what your strategy is when any of these block strings happen to you, or better yet, drop a video of you surpassing it. I’ve been following the video thread and I even follow Nebbiez on AE itself. I have yet to see a single match of a Guy conquering this stuff.
People may say things that work on character but you also have to remember not everyone is going to do all the things that will work in your favour in a matchup. That’s exactly like playing someone in casuals telling them exactly how you beat their character and you. Then when you meet in tournament you don’t do anything that would put the matchup into their favour and all the things you state that would aid them and you win. You can’t always expect people to do things that you want them to do and expect to always come out on top in every situation. Chun Li is a bad matchup for Guy on paper but you can make it a matchup in favour if you don;t do the things that will benefit for her. Chun is mostly a ground game battle because both characters can prevent an aerial approach, Chun has the better ground normals but Guy’s can still contend because his leads to a knockdown which Chun players don’t benefit from. You’ll be focusing on poking her and pushing her to the corner, easier said than done and it’s all about patience you already should know what Chun’s main tools are going to be anyways which is st.mp, st.hp and cr.hk. Chun’s mixup is rather weak and easily able to be seen. So really it’s who has more patience and who has the better footsie game.
Guile is all patience without meter his fireball game can be trouble, you’re going to get hit by booms whether its chip or raw hit, You just have to limit space between him and you, and be able to react quickly when you have meter for EX runslide or though its a risk cause of space require going for Cr.hk to get a trade against sonic boom for a knockdown many characters are capable of this players will risk it if they can. Or even st.mk cause sometimes you can trade with frieballs (its still the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen btw) As you already know Guile getting knocked down is the keys to this matchup and Guile in the corner benefits you very well. You really can’t carelessly jump because Guile’s AA game pretty substantial against Guy, you can gain a few mistakes here and there but not every Guile player is going to fall for that elbow drop.
Honestly all the characters you listed, you basically need patience and a ground game against, most if not all can’t necessarily jump in on Guy besides Yun because his Divekick can blowup your AA attempt. You just have to pick your spots correctly it’s true that these matchups can become an uphill battle because of the tools that these characters have but it’s up to you to stay level headed. If you crack you’re only making their game work and your loss inbound. Just analyze the character and the player, see how they play and how you should approach the match and those situations, redo the situations that you are having trouble in and see what you can do about it.
I understand what your saying. I’m just not convinced.
You still talk like in any match someone is repeated the same flow chart over and over eventually you have to be given a way in, as if the start up or recovery of their moves will get worse over time. And as I referred to earlier: maybe you don’t face that kind of competition as Guy too often but SF4 became a game about decisions, forcing your opponent to predict or commit to something and punishing when they guess wrong.
Guys tools aren’t suited to aggression. Just pressure. Then only work if your opponent is desperate enough to try risking things just to attack you but they never ever need to.
You have 5 moves, your opponent has 5 moves (just for example). Lets say each of your 5 moves can beat 1 move clean in a trade and 2 moves if timed correctly of your opponents 5. And each of their moves does the same. That makes the neutral game risky. There’s a pause in high play of spacing and footsies because you need to be specific about what your doing.
In a Guy match up, the idea is more the fact that each of your opponents 5 choices will beat 4 of yours clean. You need to guess way more specifically than they do all the time. Even when you put your opponent in a 50/50 it’s still against you because you need to pick specifically when they have a more general choice. You can’t provoke a DP in a decent player because you can always easily see if the action requires a DP or not. Sometimes it’s not even about reactions. The delay between all of Guys “ambiguous” tools are all long enough that you can input an option select to cover all the necessary response.
And I’m not bad mouthing Guy’s frame traps. I’m just calling them pointless. The opponent has no good enough cause to attack you in that pause rather than waiting for you to finish and continue the neutral game. Are you going to bushin grab them out of crouch? Does Run overhead come out fast enough that it can’t reasonably be reacted to with a high block? Guys best means of a block string into chip (TC>HZO) put you in the face of your opponent one frame behind. That puts you in a negative position. You’re the one that should stop because the probability is any offensive decision you take next will be the wrong one. Which in itself isn’t a problem - vortex and rush down characters do that but the neutral game is also against you. Unless you take another uneducated guess ASAP, you’ll be the one avoiding chip. So what was the use?
I know that not all matches go like this, but they can - every time. There’s no need for a match not to go like this. Other players just don’t stay to the game plan and get flashy. Any Guy match can be made into a struggle&lose match. If you collect enough data to predict your opponent accurately, I tip my hat to you but that just meant you were clearly a better player than your opponent. You experience with Guy didn’t win that match, your experience period did so, and you would have had an easy job picking another character.
His grab, his jump, his special move hitboxes. This simple nuances stop you from provoking people into your frame trap. Just because your opponent isn’t playing properly doesn’t mean what you do is successful or effective.
I don’t mean to sound like a hater, but even the talk about Ultra states that people will stop jumping in on each other as much because there’s no effectiveness in it. How does delayed wake up help Guy exactly? Who option selects Guy on their safe jump with a risky move? What buffs for Guy stop your opponent from jumping as much as they did in AE 2012? 4 frame reversal BSK that doesn’t hit behind you even though the leg is extended backwards?
I mean, I’m not asking you to it’s hopeless, but isn’t it unnecessarily difficult? Frame traps on an opponent you can’t force to press a button. A character that needs to work of HKDs that doesn’t work well in the neutral game.
Uh… I’ve played SF seriously since Alpha 3, it’s always been the same type of play
You’re looking at this too vaguely . Frame traps only work if you make your opponent press a button which will usually be crouch tech. That means you have to work in throws and frame traps in between each other, that also means you have to move in and out of grab and their cr.tech range to see if they are even teching. If they aren’t teching then there’s no point to frame trap all you are doing is pushing them away from you but closer to the corner. Keeps it at a neutral situation but only gives you the advantage, also being offensive does mean having to deal pressure even if you aren’t doing a lot of damage. It’s the same situation with character’s like Rufus and Cammy, they can blow up crouch techs, but if you don’t crouch tech. Their divekicks only serve one purpose and that is to give them pressure on you and the only thing you really worry about is when a throw will happen and if they are trying to cross up. If they just divekick all day and don’t throw what is there to be worried about?
Same thing with baiting a DP and the like, you have to put them into a situation where they will DP, which can be done in several ways. Even influenced by you like blowing up their frame traps or grab attempts. Going from safe jumps and non safejumps, You have to mix up what you do, how you do it. Mixups aren’t just set 50/50s and High and lows. There are mental mixups as well, same with vortexes if you see what option they are going for the vortex is useless outside of that chip and pressure. Ibuki’s Kunai if you can block it, there’s almost no point to it besides pressure. If you block the crossup/no crossup setups afterwards all it leads to is pressure that you may blowup with a reversal…
Ultra Guy has been repeatedly stated as a strong character in the game, granted this is only a few weeks into the arcade release and the remaining location tests, but Nemo stated Rolento isn’t as strong as people would have thought even though people thought he was going to be very good. He was also toned down apparently from the arcade at the recent loketests. Guy still even in the newer build has been reported as still good. CCG Air even stated Guy’s St.HK and st.lk are very good. What options will stop people from jumping in on Guy? roughly 5. St.HK, St.lk. Cr.mp (at proper range), EX tatsu and TK Izuna. You’ll still have the usability of Cr.hk and cr.mk in their respective AAs but Guy has at least 5 good tools that will stop someone from jumping in on him. IF tatsu hit behind him it’d kind give him an easy out of very bad jumps but not safe jumps and that would encourage many players to find safe jump setups that would allow Guy’s EX tatsu not to autocorrect and still be safe. Thus defeating the purpose of it hitting on both sides.
Also all of Guy’s normals are usable in the footsie game however you need to understand your opponent’s footsies and predict what they are going to do. Most of footsies isn’t even raw reaction it’s prediction. Most pokes are rather quick and hard for one to always be able to punish it with a raw reaction unless you set your mind to seeing that normal and reacting to it right there, similar to how you would train to whiff punish a normal in training mode with a raw reaction. That works out why? You set the timing of when the training dummy is going to press the button so right then and there you have already known when the move is going to happen and the only thing you have to wait for is the active frames to end to punish accordingly. That isn’t going to happen in high level play very often because you yourself don’t always know when your opponent is going press a button and which normal he will use. Whiff punishing basically comes to the idea of prediction and anticipation. You’re predicting when your opponent is going to press his poke, and anticipation what poke is going to be pressed at that range. This leads to 3 scenarios, You hit your opponent and gain a counterhit, meaning your normal connected to his during its startup. You hit your opponent during his pokes recovery, your normal became active during your opponents recovery period.
Both normals whiff and nothing happens or you both trade.
If your opponent isn’t playing into your game, change your game to counter theirs. If they are always blocking open them up with grabs, use overheads. Then do a similar or the same situation, see what they do, see the timing they use etc. Look at ways to counter those options and try and stay one spot ahead. If they tech, use a frame trap or grab again. Do the same thing and walk outside of tech range see what they do. .
SF is just like Rock, Paper Scissors. 3 options. 3 outcomes, One winner, one loser or a draw. You can go for the same method multiple times because your opponent will think you will do something different every time and it will work, you can change it up after you’ve done it twice in a row because you think your opponent will counter that option this time. You can change it up every time to keep your opponent guessing. You can do nothing and see what your opponent was going to do out of hesitation or desperate measures.
About delayed wake up, it doesn’t hurt Guy at all, he isn’t setup based primarily like vortex characters who will always have that main option, if they delayed wakeup you don’t have to worry about anything as you can still block and likely won’t be punished. The game stays neutral with momentum still in your favour more than likely. If an ibuki goes for the Kunai vortex and you DWU the kunai will whiff, she still has recovery from the move and you might be able to punish her. Now she has 3 options, Go for a DWU setup, Go for the regular setup, do nothing. You can choose to DWU or wake up regularly, it becomes a guessing game there.
SF is always going to be about anticipation and prediction.