The Dudley Playing Style Thread

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
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The aim of this thread is to discuss and contrast the differing ways Dudley can be played in order to maximise his potential. Obviously a lot depends on your own skill and the character and opponent you are facing, but I think it’s quite interesting to talk about how to try to get the best out of the biggest pimp in 3S.

I started this thread after seeing the Fujiwara videos from the match videos thread. Jesus christ that is a serious Dudley. Fujiwara was pretty much the first big-name Dudley player in Japan, I am pretty sure that those videos are from quite a long time ago, and if you look at how the top Japanese Dudley players of today use him ,it’s very different to see. Fujiwara plays Dudley really agressively, uses the Rocket Upper for maximum damage in 50/ 50’s, jumping in a LOT, setting up a lot of jumping meta-games, which basically boils down to this:

  • try to hit you at the highest point in Dudley’s jump where you can still connect a HK after landing.

  • try to hit you deeper, the deepest point where the HP or HK can connect.

Varying between one and two means that oppoennts that try to parry risk a 50% chance of eating a “big fat Fujiwara combo TM.”

In addition he also uses:

  • Jumpup or jump in HK, timed so that it only just clips the top of the opponents hit box. This still puts them in enough hit stun to link SA1 / SA3 on landing.

  • Empty jump in, throw or ground based throw fake-out.

  • Late jump in mk or mp, cr lp, Fierce Jet Upper. This one is good because you can do it so late that it pretty much looks like you are going for an empty throw. For saftey, you can just do short short super for verification as an alternative.

Fujiwara also options selects a lot, such as Hk XX ducking (opponent blocked), low option select tech, HK xx EX Machine Gun blow. I also have to say that he is really good at continually applying the pressure on the ground, with superb variation of all Dudley’s moves such as f+mk, f+m, towards + fierce, even mp Machine Gun blow as a poke. All the time in between these moves he is option selecting as well to maximise the chance of landing the one sick combo he is looking for.

My problem with his playstyle is I think it’s too cavalier. I play Dudleys that like to jump in a lot and I will just use some of Dudley’s anti-air chains to keep him out, I’m talking about HK xx Jab MGB, or the mk, hk, hp 4 hit chain, or the mk, towards +mk, hp chain, or maybe a stading medium punch cancelled into a ducking and maybe corkscrew them from behind if they parried me. Opponents can do this too, some of my opponents use things like standing medium punch comboed into hurricane kick, to really make you work to get in. In my opinion if you are just going to jump in all day long, you are asking for punishment.

Now on the other hand, in this day and age we see Kokujin or Jima as probably the best Dudleys in the world. These guys use the Corkscrew blow and the big thing to notice about them is their ground game in comparison to Fujiwara. It is much buffer, and although they of course jump in, they restrict it somewhat and jump in from say just outside sweep distance, as opposed to from ridiculously far away. There’s hella other stuff they do, pretty much relying on trying to zone the opponent to the corner and then starting the 50 / 50’s from there. They also like to “corner-trap” the opponent and quite often will stand at a distance where they can just dictate to the opponent the flow of the match by trapping them in them in the corner. The main variation between these newer Dudleys and the older ones is that they rely on 50 / 50’s much more whereas the older ones used Dudley as a combo machine.

Now of course there are people that use Dudley in other ways, such as gimmicky players and even players that are more patient than Kokujin. So what’s the best style to play Dudley (if there is one)? Please discuss and analyse.

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Play the agressiv stun Dudley a.k.a 178 style.

J.Fierce - St.Roudhouse - Ex.Jet upper

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the bolded part is where i think he is a god among men. he just has this seemingly endless and quite possibly seamless pokestring that just forces his opponent into submission.

regarding the MGB he uses, i think it’s jab. if you watch his matches, he can get a s. fierce out after he uses it. strong MGB doesn’t recover quite as fast.

that’s something i mentioned in the match videos thread. he abuses his opponents because they don’t punish him for jumping too much. the Ken players he went up against, i was just thinking, if that were my buddy Alvin, he would’ve swatted me with far s. fierce several times had i been jumping all day. or dash under, c. short, c. short xx Shippu. not to say that they didn’t know how to do that, but perhaps the caliber of the opponents just wasn’t as high as Fujiwara’s was/is.

not to take anything away from Fujiwara, but he also does parry extremely well in game situations.

that’s also kind of how i’ve progressed as a Dudley player. i’ve gone from reckless jumping machine to a more precise attacker.

i’d say the best way to play is according to how your opponent plays. it’s kinda like basketball. you take what the defense gives you, and go from there. if the defense is attempting to bring you left because that’s where his strong point lies, change direction and go right so he’ll be in a recovery state.

it’s much the same in 3s. if your opponent is reckless, make him pay by having a solid defense and punishment game. if your opponent is a turtle, then by all means rush him down. have everything in moderation.

i’d personally like to have Fujiwara’s execution and poke strings along with Kokujin’s timing and sense of awareness.

:rock:

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Well said.

Moving things on, I see you are a fan of Kokujin too. I have adapted my game to a similar style as him, in the sense of keeping grounded and use the “smarts” to try to dictate the play. I do what he does and will go for a jump-in in a situation where I feel the reward is greater than the risk and in a situation where my opponent does not have much time to react to the jump in. Kokujin is very good at doing this, he only really goes for a jump in at a maximum distance of the distance you start away from your opponent when the round begins. I find the optimal distance to jump-in to be if you take one step in from this distance. Doing this will quite often force your opponent to block, allowing you to go for a high / low / throw / bait a mopve to parry set-up.

What do you think of his smarts, and is there anything that has impressed you guys?

Kokujin is pretty much the reason why in the arcadia rankings Dudley’s match up against Chun Li is rated as 6-4 to Chun rather then 7-3 (once it was even 8-2). Now I have to say I have studied his KSK vision matches a lot to see what exactly he is doing, and I have to be honest… even though there are some smart things he does, I still don’t quite get why he still uses Corkscrew Blow in that match-up.

I have seen he is really good at landing cr.HK at maximum range agaisnt Chun, which the way he uses it can actually keep her OUT of her cr.mk range and thus harming her kara-throw game. He kinda fakes a few attempts by ducking and not doing it and then times it just right as Chun approaches. He then connects the ducking upper XX Corkscrew for really good damage, and then tries to seize the advatange because ideally with Corscrew Blow, he will have the weapons in stock to threaten Chun on wakeup.

Now this is really smart play, but I have to say that I would just do cr.HK, follow it up with another cr.HK, and then use the ducking straight to put them in the corner (stolen from Fujiwara lol). This allows you to utilise the fundamental part of Kokujin strat (IE keep Chun out) but also retain the strength of the Rocket Uppercut, and you build good meter. When I see Kokujin play agasint Nuki, Raoh, AFM, etc, I notice that if he can gain the initiative first, IE a life lead, his strategies are really sound. However, I feel that if Chun Li is ahead, his choice of Corkscrew Blow falls down as getting in on Chun is so hard that in the one case you do get in, you need to dish out maximum damage.

More generally Kokujin also does some other unique things. He often uses EX Jet Upper to finish a Machine Gun Blow combo, if the EX will put the opponent in the corner. He does this to give him enough time to throw the rose. It’s not quite as good as knock down by super, but it does give you enough time to throw the rose, only Ken’s EX SRK and I think Ryu can punish you if you use this method.

He also does a variation of the sweep combo, which you have kindly put on the combo thread (excellent thread BTW), with four sweeps, jab MGB, swing blow. Now I would normally go for a fierce as the last hit for the reset, but he prefers to use the swing blow because again it gives him a bit extra time to throw the rose for a high / low. This is a bit weird in my opinion because doing the reset does this as well… but I suppose that an opponent who is sharp can reversal you if you go for the fierce reset, so I guess this is why he uses his variation as he gains that bit extra amount of time to watch what you do and suss you out.

There are some other things that Kokujin does as well (actually Jima has some nice “tricks” as well), but this post is long enough and I can’t think of them off-hand. I think he is a really good player to analyse because actually his execution is quite bad for a Dudley player… but I still would say he is still probably the best Dudley player (although I really rate Jima too) because his fundamentals like zoning, punishment and knowledge of which one of Dudleys’ moves can beat other characters pokes at the right time.

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That finish is also a little bit flashier. Since most Dudley’s will finish with the ->HP or even j. HP, by using the SSB he is mindfucking his opponent by showing them another method. It probably confuses some into thinking there will be additional moves in that string.

I havent seen the video, but, is he able to uppercut after the ssb?

I think Dudley is best used as a rushdown machine. Dudley isnt about patience, because he can control the pace of the matchup by playing so aggresive. Dudley’s matches are just trainwrecks, and that’s what he’s such a fresh character. Option selecting j.MK is the best method I find for getting in close. It just seems to have the perfect priority.

My Dudley playstyle is pretty much all about just getting them into the corner. Not playing too reckless, but willing to get supered if Ill still have enough life/meter for 1 more shot at a corner 50/50.

Anyway great thread.

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nope. SSB is a combo ender and as such, cannot be followed up by anything other than a super.

as much as i’d like to completely agree with you, i can’t. vs. a good Ken or Chun, it’s difficult to dictate the pace via rushing down. not to say that you should turtle, but being aggressive in those 2 match ups is pretty different from all out rush down.

:rock:

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Personally i think that if you are good at poke strings and keeping pressure on and have good reaction time to get out of there if you are in a situation where chun/ken have a super stocked and you are vonerable to a standard d+mk/d+mp to super then you should make them come to you, but at the same time you dont want to give chun the oppertunity to gain too much meter while you are doing the whole “spacing” game.

Against chun:

I like to use lots of f+mk, c. lk x2, empty jump into either throw or backswing blow, if BSB is blocked immidatly go in with either standing lp/lk or you have the option to do UOH, f+mk, f+hk… so many options. Your key to beating chun is make them duck and own them up with a overhead to super. If you can get some good mixups in the corner and like kokujin does use the sweep x4 then jab machine gun blow then BSB and continue after by throwing rose and then either c. lk x2 to super (if hits obviously) and if it doesnt just do either f+mk or f+hk to super (this is your love against chun, mixing up into this). You got to keep the bitch guessing and not having enough time to do her c. mk. If you can succeed in this she should not give you too much of a problem. But it really isnt as simple as i just made it sound… lol

Also i like to do lots of resets with like 5x sweep, f+hk/hp/j. hp, then 50/50 them. Some times doing a lk/mk ducking to throw or delayed upper works wonders.

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i never do resets, cuz if u end the combo with ssb u get the knockdown anyway and more guaranteed damage. imo the reset is just giving them a chance to get out easier, which i dont like.

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Check out the match videos thread and check a guy called Eda out. Wow, this guy seems like ANOTHER new rising Japanese Dudley star. I have seen him before but he has had a variety of good results recently. His game is kind of like a mix of Kokujin and Jima’s spacing with Fujiwara’s savageness when he gets in. He does a really wicked throw fake out on a CHun Li player in these videos as well. There is also anotehr brown Dudley in this video, though I am not too sure who it is, and he isn’t bad either.

I think Eda has the style you should try to achieve with Dudley, solid fundamentals but like a steaming freight train when he gets in.

Check it out.

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hey, this is a good thread.

just out of curiosity, how are today’s Dudleys doing?

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This dudley is looking for good competition, it’s been too long since i’ve played. This dudley is getting lazy.

Maybe i can convince suupaa to match me some time.

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I was always suprised this thread didn’t get more responses… Dudley is a character that relies SO much on mind games, the tricks, gimmicks and fake outs a player uses in their playstyle can make a massive amount of difference.

Anyhow, every Dudley player is mourning the loss of Kokujin who has retired from 3S. When I originally made this thread, I thought Jima was slightly the better player, but since that time there is absolutely no doubt, Kokujin became THE Dudley. Since this thread was made, he really changed his style of play, becoming really aggressive and using loads of gimmicks and tricks in mind games to turn hard match-ups (espeically vs Chun-Li) on their heads. Kokujin uses some really cool tricks such as:

  • Empty Jump, EX Jet
  • Empty Jump 1X Crouch short into Corkscrew Blow
  • Jump up, instant parry on opponent’s wakeup
  • Cr. RH on anticipation of opponent’s cr.MK / Sweep to beat it

He may not have been the first player to invent these tricks, but the first player I have seen to put them to as good use as he did. The thing Kokujin did which I really like as a Dudley player is that in the hard match-ups, eg Chun Li, rather than playing safer, he took more risks and figured out ways to make opponent’s scared enough to not be able to get their game going and instead have to respond to Dudley’s threats.

So I think from Kokujin we can learn that Dudley should be played aggresively. However, to play Dudley aggresively you must have a lot of skill and understanding of the game, as well as good reactions. Above all, keep the opponent guessing as often as possible.

Now if only I could play like that…

PS: One more thing, watch out for Australia’s Hong, they call him “Mini-Koku”!

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haha… i think what i liked about this thread was it tries to articulate the differences between players. so many players (e.g. me) don’t know how to see the subtle things, and have to rely on cues, e.g. the crowd going “wahhh” when Kokujin RKed Hong’s whiffed HP. unless it’s really obvious like that, some people can’t really see it, and what makes certain players very different, so yeah… it’s much appreciated.

some other things about Kokujin:

  • he likes to “knock” with f+MK, i.e. go for as many as 3 f+MKs in a row. corkscrew almost always comes when one hits.
  • again yes, he’s very novel… cancels anti-air HK into ducking, uses EX Jet Upper on wakeup to escape Denjin.

maybe it’s just me but one thing that seemed common to Kokujin and Hong is their throw/SSB fakeout game. it’s very freaking good.

Gunman: you mentioned you weren’t sure about SA3 against Chun. which would you say is a better choice? it’s probably not the first reason, but SA3 definitely lets him to empty jump > c.LK xx SA3 a lot; it might not be safe on block, but it’s safer than a blocked Rocket or Rolling Thunder. also, the 3 stock keeps him Jet Uppering like a madman.

now that i think of it, empty jump EX Jepper is pretty smart against Chun. Chun has no real non-SA combos and if she has meter, she’ll be betting on the throw…

what do you guys think about Victoly? he was pretty awesome… and aside from the SA choice differences (afaik Victoly preferred SA1, which usually suggests more conservative play), is he much different to the Aussie and Japanese Dudleys?

ok… i’m halfway through the [media=youtube]0VKnThlWuIA"[/media] video and the most obvious things i can pick out:

  • much more laid back… e.g. happy to stay midscreen if ahead on life, won’t cancel into ducking other than to throw/SSB.
  • he seems to hit every button with the intention of the attack hitting - either he’s in your face with a high/low/throw mixup, or he’s running away charging meter… no in-between, like poking with c.HK or f+FP.
  • he doesn’t poke much, but he likes to jump. i didn’t see f+HP and c.HK often outside sweep range. he seems to have some trouble getting out of the corner because of that, and he has to wait for a good jump opportunity. but he does so good a job at jumping (early MK, early HK, and late HP seem to cover him) that empty jump tricks don’t seem to be necessary.
  • lot of early j.HK > SA1
  • lot of hit confirms off UOH

am i way off? i’m still new to this whole analysis thing, but i’d like to get better at it. this tactical/strategic awareness can be a good thing.

more people need to post in this thread and threads like this :tup:

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terra, you try to analyze the game too much.

its admirable, but you really don’t need to break down every players style to have an effective dudley. you pick up things here and there and adapt it to your own style.

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Actually for a lot of matches these days Vic picks SAIII.

The old Vic style didn’t use many chain combos… I think he does them more recently.

He’s been playing and doing quite well these past couple of months with a 3rd at Interface and another high finish at some other SoCal (non FFA) tourney.

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lol… truth is my Dudley sucks and it doesn’t seem to be getting any better by playing or watching match vids :sad:. it’s like when you play HF for 2 years and suddenly you hear the rule “don’t jump” and something just clicks in your head. then suddenly you’re poking/playing footsies a lot more, and your game’s a whole lot tighter. sometimes we need it spelled out for us.

[media=youtube]d4r4R2PSmQ8"[/media]

it’s too short a match to say much, but:

  • first thing i notice is Victoly seems to have to jump to get in on Kokujin. both players jumped about 4 times, but Victoly’s seem overall more predictable (jumps forward from outside sweep range, doesn’t wait for a whiff).
  • both players really have their option select roundhouse xx MGB down.
  • Kokujin misses a lot of juggles! what’s up with that?
  • Victoly doesn’t super… well with SA1, wakeup super isn’t really an option.

Vic still plays? mm…

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Actually the rule in HF is “Don’t jump forward or back.” I neutral jump all the time to avoid shit and counter air to air if my opponent is trapped/stupid enough to jump at me.

Anyway, Dudley doesn’t seem like the right character for me (my experience w/ ST suggests I play Ken, Hugo, or Chun)… but I love playing him. It’s really inexplicable… I don’t really know if there is a key for playing him besides ume and experience.

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the key to playing dudley most effectively is patience imo. dudley does so much damage, and has great anti airs, so if you have a healthy mix of offense AND defense, he is a very formidable character.

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[LEFT]^^ That’s interesting you should say that Epsilon, because I too used to play Dudley very patiently, capitialsing on mistakes. These days however, I try to play more aggresively, and I find it is working far more in my favour.

Against some characters, especially Chun Li (and to a certain extent, Urien), I don’t think you can play patient against. Let Chun Li play her game and try to out patient her and it’s 8-2 in her favour. Rush her, cause her problems and never let her settle and it’s more like 5-5. Sure you’ll get supered every now and again, but you don’t fall prey to the “being stuck in the corner getting Kara-thrown X 1 million” game. You can make her fight on your terms, not the other way around.

Now of course this is 3S, and as we all know you cannot play the same way against everyone because you will be killed, you must always mix it up. However with Dudley, what can work amazingly well is to rush down with a flurry of blows and then out of nowhere just do absoultely nothing. The number of times I have done this to see a shoto fly into the air with a missed Dragon, Urien get punished as I block his Vilolence Knee Drop or another character wake-up super and then get punished is unreal. The jump-up immeadiate parry utilises a similar tactic, it keeps you safe from throws and attacks and if the opponent tried either, on the way down it’s Dudley Combo 101 time.

That said, in London we have a very good Dudley player who we call the “turtle Dudley,” and he is really good and hard to break down! He plays so safe and when you try to get in on him and you mess up, he then does his 50/50 game on you. It’s an interesting way to play the character, although you often beat him just by out-turtling him and poking him from range… Dudley just cannot fight like that IMO.

But from the few times I have seen Epsilon’s Dudley, I have to say you are really damn good. Very patient and very safe, and working the opponent whilst keeping as few holes and openings in your attack strings. I just think though that Dudley is a character for whom high-risk can equal high-reward. Get that kncok down on your opponent whilst they are in the corner and you are laughing. Sometimes that risk is really worth it IMO. That’s waht set Kokujin apart from other Dudley’s, he had the basics down, but then he employed shock tactics that could swing the match-up in his favour. In matches towards the end of his career, you saw opponents back off and back off, even Chun Li players… you could see they were visibly scared of what Kokujin would do, they just could not read him, and were scared that if they did the wrong thing, it would be “ten-second round” time.

As for Victoly… well he was the shizzle. Japanese standard easily IMO. I was suprised he never went over there because I think he would have regulated a lot of them and like PyroLee would probably have made quite a name for himself. Even watching all those old Vic videos, you still see just how good he was, his strings are awesome, his spacing, his reactions, his tactics. Tremendous player. He played safe most of the time too, but I liked how he could change gears and go from safe to attacking / aggresively out of nowhere and turn a match on it’s head.

Oh and BTW, against Chun, SA3 always now. You got to try to rush her and don’t her settle. walk in and out of cr.MK / Staning far fierce range and option parry low and high with option HKxx MGB.
[/LEFT]

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Actually I am now quite interested in seeing how IronFist plays now. They used to call him Vic Jr but after his 4th at RanBat he should be getting more respect. I wonder what style he employs now because he used to be rather defensive.

My major thing with Dudley is that I don’t quite know who I can/should turtle up against and how I should go about doing that. I think I will just have to do a lot of experimentation and read through the big thread some more.