Heh I watched a KoF13 match from a few months back, NorCal or SoCal I think, and one Ash player was doin a crazy combo.
Has Rushdown gone away? No, SRK just doesn’t play any games with real rushdown in them anymore.
Take two Melty Blood and call me in the morning.
I think there’s a lot more factors that come into play that aren’t being addressed here. First of all most new games don’t allow for the same diverse styles as the older games. Especially in a game like MvC3 you say logan is one of the best rush down but is rarely used in that manner without assist. In MvC3 the game is just so risk, and at times random. To minimize the randomness of the game I believe you have to play a very safe rush down style.
And on top of that I’ve been playing fighting games competitively for close to 10 years, and I’ve had this discussion with people who just started. The spread of footage and information while good overall also hurts the game in certain areas. Back in the day it wasn’t uncommon to go to a tournament and see everyone more so or less play their characters in a different fashion. But now with the spread of youtube, when you want to main someone. You type a top players name in the search and more or less you see how your character SHOULD be played. Sure you can probably add your own tricks and mold it to closer of your style, but with games like sf4 you’re rather limited in how creative you can be cause of the limitations of the system.
With games and everything in general being broken down more systematically and all this wealth of information and hit boxes and such, people are more or less trying to play there character in a perfect way.
And that matters because??? Guilty Gear is full of defensive mechanics, but is still a very offensive game. It doesn’t matter what your wank ass theory fighter dictates what a game favors, what matters is how the game is actually played in the end.
Definitely DEFINITELY don’t agree with this one fucking bit. Are you serious? Defensive mechanics? You lose meter IF you turtle. I remember when I spoke to ricky ortiz when he was playing ggac and he said the game sucked cause you can’t turtle. I’d love to hear these defensive mechanics everything in GG caters towards being offensive. The only thing I see as defensive is flawless defense and burst, but even then flawless defense burns meter.
I really don’t see your point, I see you’re throwing “theory fighter” in there, but I don’t think it’s a “theory” that SF4 is a defensive game. People in the GG community didn’t decide “hey! let’s be aggressive cause that’s how WE LIKE TO PLAY :)” no, once again. The game favored that kind of style.
Your missing the point, yes, Guilty Gear had some mechanics that limited defensive play, but there are some mechanics made for defensive play. The game’s myrad of blocking options are a perfect example. Yes, the game was made to be played in an offensive manner, and even defensive or “turtle” charecters have to go at moments, but there are still some defensive mechanics which the game’s offese was built with in mind.
MvC3 would have been another example, where you have a mechanic like Advancing Guard that’s oddles stronger than green boclking in that it requires no meter and pushes even farther back, and with incredibly strong defensive assist like Haggar Lariat, and to some small debeatable degree X-factor can be used to help defensive play, yet none of that mattered because the strongest charecters in the game could all work around these mechanics, and were designed with them in mind.
You can fill a game with defensive mechanics, but it doesn’t make a lick of difference if the game is played in an offensive manner. The game favors what the game plays, not what theory fighter dictates.
I’m not sure if one Ash player doing a crazy combo is enough to make a general statement about the character one way or another, though.
Those videos do put things into perspective. There’s just alot more happening on screen in CvS2 compared to IV. Ricky and Combofiend are so much less afraid to get in each other’s faces compared to Shizza and Keno simply because IV just doesn’t reward it as well (unsafer hitboxes and lack of guard break). Even with the changes to Super and AE, we still don’t see that much compared to older, more aggressive games. Even in AE, offensive play focuses more on aggression post knockdown compared to older games where it was morel about creating pressure outside of knockdown.
I like how we’re using vanilla videos to talk about AE. . .
The game focusing on offense after the knockdown is because of the characters, not the game. Viper, Seth, Abel, AE Makoto, SFIV Akuma, SFIV Ibuki, Fuerte, all of these characters are based on the knockdown into vortex. AE made efforts to take away from the Voretex, you can see that in the changes to Zangeif especially. AE2012 seems to be continuing this trend, with Akuma losing a lot of his voretex options after a forward throw.
You don’t, however, see similar behavior out of Fei Long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULMahkIjBeE
In AE, the Balrog Chun matchup still looks the same FYI. It’s not the player’s fault, but the game’s. In that matchup, it’s basically turtle when you are winning and pretend you’re not turtling when you are losing for either character. I guess I should say zoning or spacing since it doesn’t carry as much of a negative connotation (to some) as turtling.
There is no decline in rushdown. If anything, there’s a decline in good defensive gameplay.
You can play defesnively in GGAC… watch Testament vs Potemkin. Good Testament will never allow Pots to be near him.
You get negative penalty from overuse of backdashes, jump backs, air back dash, and standing still.
If you just step forward and walk back you can avoid it… shoot a projectile/put some other sort of disembodied attack on the screen (drills, yo yos, Faust items, etc), or anti air someone jumping at you, or even just putting out normals.
^you can do all of that and still play “turtle” style.
Though, I’d say the game has a lot of freedom - you can play passive, aggressive, or even shiift between though two successfully.
That’s why ya’ll need to hop on that KoF13 when it drops. Rushdown niggas all day
you can turtle and runaway on GG, the difference is that you cant passively do it
mindlessly rushing wouldnt lead you to anything
What you’re describing here is more an indication that people outside of Japan had no idea how to play SFIV for the first two years of it’s lifespan. SSFIV is no more defensive or offensive than Vanilla, and whatever option selects you can do in AE, you can do in super and vanilla as well. People just didn’t know about them or didn’t bother to lear how to use them. Who else besides Alioune was OS’ing the shit out of their normals in Vanilla/Super? In Vanilla, Daigo was using Ryu’s safe jump OS DP (which was also possible in ST) as early as Nov/Dec 2008, but people only really started talking about it when he used it to blow up Justin’s Rufus. Emilio-Ken (the dude that SFIV-style OS’s are named after in Japan) was using meaty blockstring OS Ultra on wakeup before people even knew it was possible. People said that footsies were pointless in this game until they say Justin’s Boxer vs Daigo’s Ryu at EVO 2009. Unblockable setups (not talking about the Ultra bug) only started becoming more prominent toward the end of Super’s lifetime, but Nemo was using it against shotos way back when Nuki still played. The same with frame traps. While everyone else was complaining about how weak throws are, Japanese players were blowing up people with counter-hit setups for days (Abel overhead into step kick, Guile st.hp, Nemo’s Chun frame trap, Bison cr.hp/st.hk, Viper st.mp, Blanka walking elect etc etc etc). Noone outside of Japan even know about the Vortex till Sabin went there and dropped the knowledge on SRK. Anti-backdash? Yep, the rest of the world was also late in that department. And most players still don’t even know that you can OS a sweep into moves other than lk/lp as well. More people than ever these days are complaining about Viper, but yet she was strongest (by far) in Vanilla. It just took that long for most people to learn how to play her (Daigo said she was top tier in every version of the game so far). And how many people besides Uryo have you seen do the CH mp into Ultra setup? Or trade cr.hp, hit-confirm into Ultra? There’s still lots more for people to explore in this game, but they just won’t do it until they see it in a stream or a YouTube vid.
Many people (especially those who don’t play SFIV or who quit it early) don’t realize how big subtle shifts in the metagame affected the game on the larger scale. This is not the SFIV your grandparents told you about. People have found a way to work with the low-pushback/blockstun, rather than against it (watch how Valle plays Ryu these days, or Justin Wong’s Cammy). Same with throws, easy reversals, leniency etc.
So when it comes to the topic of Rushdown in SFIV, while it’s true that part of it has to do with the fact that zoning is implicitly weaker, it also has a lot to do with the fact that over time people have actually learned to get around the games defensive mechanics.
tl;dr: If people didn’t know about OS’s, unblockables, frame traps, and vortex okizeme, they would probably still be saying AE is a defensive game…
There is more than 1 way to play the game. If you play slow and turtle and guys can’t seem to work around that, then the turtle is the better player.
Blocking is the most important part of your game in any fighting game
this again, i don’t see how people can’t see the defensive play in GG. While it may have aggressive momentum majority of the time it not over run by it by any means.( their are characters that are design like that though). GGAC Punish excessive of any action, even rush down.
Ever played Ultimate Ninja Storm 2? That game can never be played as a fighter…EVER.
I didn’t say the game was anything based on wank-ass theory fighter. I’m just saying Capcom’s “balancing” isn’t going to affect how it turns out because the engine has been left untouched. Capcom has a tendency to take credit for how the players develop the game with their “Yeah, we meant to do that,” PR nonsense after the fact. SF4 and SSF4 would be just as offensive/defensive as AE if they were being played right now, and Ryu’s standing MP doing 10 more/less damage isn’t going to change that.
Guilty Gear isn’t the best example because there were actual changes to the game (like the “myriad of blocking options,” which were added as the revisions piled on) in addition to character changes, and those have a much greater effect on how a game is played.
I’m not saying it wasn’t in the game, I’m saying what it went from and what it went too.
OS grew as more characters, and ultra’s were added. OS’s themselfs have been around forever… From vanilla to Super AE ver2 it has been OS fighter 4 however.
also your incorrect on a good bit of stuff but i dont feel like arguing