Regarding pot buster, why would a 270 movement be harder than hcbf?
This nailed it really. I don’t want to turn this into a parrying debate, but it seems pretty accepted among most people who actually understand the game that the nature of the system in 3S means the game is mostly about putting yourself in an advantageous situation directly next to your opponent (whether by dash punching in, playing footsie until you get a knockdown, activating Genei Jin, etc.) and then trying to ride the low/overhead/throw mixup to victory - and that’s exactly how a grappler plays in other games.
I don’t think a grappler is defined by his reliance on throws per se, but rather his reliance on the mixup involving a throw. In Slash, a Potemkin that hits you with 2K -> combo all day because you’re trying to backdash to avoid his Potemkin buster doesn’t suddenly become not a grappler just because he’s not landing grabs on you - the grab is the reason he’s hitting you with all those combos.
When you look at it like this, how is, say, 3S Chun not a grappler? It’s her beastly karathrow that ensures you can’t just sit in low block all day, enabling her to hit you with low forward xx super. Similarly, how can Yun activate Genei-Jin from across the screen, fly up and randomly combo you? Because you’re trying not to get grabbed. The only reason Makoto is considered a grappler yet those two aren’t - or practically any other 3S character isn’t - is because Makoto’s throw, rather than a combo, is her biggest damage option. But, as I previously stated, it’s not the throw itself that defines the grappler, but the mixup involving the throw, and most 3S characters largely rely on those very same mixups.
The problem with 3S, in my view, is that it’s no fun playing a grappler-type character if your opponent’s aims are exactly the same as yours i.e. get in and mix up. You really need the dynamic of one character trying to keep at a distance while the other tries to get in to make it interesting. 3S to me is like an SF2 Zangief mirror match, boring as hell.
Goh has some nice grapples, most of Wolf’s involve the casual slam that chews up the health bar. Goh grabs and continues to damage you without letting go, kinda like what nina does in tekken. With the force behind them, it does a hella lot of damage to the health bar.
I’ll add A3 sodom, really has grapples too. I always have problems with him on harder settings.
Can Zangief really be defined as a grappler nowadays, though? I mean, in SF2, his throws did huge damage and were something to be feared. By the time of Alpha 3, though his SPD does pretty crap damage, doesnt have the range it used to, and after it connects, it throws you to the other side of the screen. Essentially, all the work you have to do to get in an an opponent gets negated once you pull off the SPD. The 360+K grab does barely more damage, but seems to have a smaller range, and the running grab does pitiful damage. He is top in A3 more for his ridiculously good pokes than he is for his grabs. In SF2, you feared him because one SPd and the match usually was evened out or heavily put in his favor. His pokes were good, but it ws the SPD that put the fear of God in you:)
SF3’s Hugo is a better grappling character. His Moonsault press does heinous damage and doesnt throw him too far away, the wall throw sets up for nice mind games/added damage, and Meat Sqausher puts in them in the corner with you (a grappler’s best place to be). His pokes are decent, however. His major drawback is lack of mobility.
Then by your logic every character is top tier. 
V-Sodom is close to top tier.
Watch a-cho, with videos of Crusher, and watch B5 with Chikyuu, etc.
See the dominance Sodom has.
I wouldn’t consider Sodom a grappler in a3.
In the other alpha games perhaps, but not in 3.
IMO, Karin is more of a grappler than Sodom is, in a3.
In a3, Gief gets free grabs because of v-ism.
And of course of, the weaker the strength SPD, the closer your opponent remains after slam. The weaker strength also has the most range to it aswell.
Pot is a grappler if but for nothing other than the fact I am sacred he is going to grab me at sweep range.
Don’t be saying that, I anti air perfectly.
Fine by me. Tiers were nothing more than just a judgement of what character is better than who while not meaning the character will always beat the latter anyway.
Kira is bullshit in Arcana Heart. It’s like giving Zangief mobility, zoning outside of his absurdly good pokes (with Arcana), AND being able to fucking SPD or super SPD right after a guard cancel?
Holy fuck that bitch scares the shit out of me. Giving her moblity just makes me ;__;.
Air Potemkin BUSTER! 
Tiers are supposed to reflect averaged matchup rankings.
The Japanese method of tiering is to create a matchup chart first, then average out the characters total ratings and build a tier list from that chart. Some one who’s top tier in a JP-tierlist isn’t necessarily going to have a clear advantage over the enitre cast, but it does mean that they have somewhat of an advantage over the majority of the cast. The character with the best matchups will be at the top of the list, after all.
With tier lists we can overlook specific matchups that aren’t reflected in the tiers. Like a top tier character could have a bad matchup against a low tier character (like #R Eddie vs Anji). But the tier list still serves it’s purpose; it shows which characters have generally good matchups across the board compared to the rest of the cast, which is useful information when you plan on playing in tournaments, since in tournaments you’ll probably be fighting a variety of characters. A top tier character will be advantageous in most matchups they run into in the tournament, and there’s still a chance they could run into a bad matchup, but the odds of running into a bad matchup with a top tier character is significantly less than a bottom tier character.
The way Westerners do tier lists is a lot less scientific though. We try to tier characters based on overall matchups but it’s rare to see a tier list based off a legit matchup chart. Usually a characters bullshit-factor or broken-factor weighs in on our tiers too, even if it has nothing to do with actual matchups. Like, a lot of people will see one or two things that are buff about a character and assume the character is buff, then rank them high (which is a really voodoo way of doing things). But even if our lists are more hocus pocus, they do somehow tend to be really similar to the jp-lists.
A character isn’t necessarily low tier for a single reason. Like they aren’t low just because they can’t cancel crouching-medium-kick, while other characters can. But moreso it’s because they are clearly at a disadvantage or expected to lose in the majority of their matchups, which entails many reasons and not just a few specific reasons.
I thought so.
So…it’s determined by the most used or whoever’s matches…played better?
Hmm good discussion.
I find that grapplers provide another dimension to mind games more than anything else. The tick -> command grab in SF certainly has changed a lot over the years, but the results can still be effective. Just the threat of an effective tick setup changes the way your opponent plays, it’s up to you if you can take advantage of it. Some people here even described the “fear” of getting hit by an SPD/FAB, there’s no doubt that it has an impact. The flipside is the keep away/footsie game that you have to overcome, and this varies by game/matchup. I’m assuming the OP enjoys this challenge, or he probably wouldn’t roll grapplers at a high level.
I also wanted to add that Birdie is far from useless in A2. Obviously there are bad matchups. He definately doesn’t have that solid tick setup that Gief does, but he has other tools that you can work with. He has good pokes, great jump in speed, and a super that counters all projectiles on reaction. He has a 50% cc that is difficult to execute, but it’s there. Can’t really say about A3, I think Vism makes all the stuff I said about A2 a moot point.
Yeah I’d agree with this.
If Hugo lands a command throw, then he does big damage. He struggles to compete with the rest of the cast when it comes to strikes. So definitely a “grappler”.
I like the term “hybrid”, but that definitely fits the like of Karin, Iori, Blue Mary, Sodom etc. These are characters who have a strong striking game and a strong grappling game.
But Makoto is more like a character with a sickening strike game, and a grappling game that just serves to unleash it (and no more than that).
So I think she earns the title of “uber-grappler”, even though her command throw actually does virtually zero damage. Indirectly, it can win an entire round, just by “unlocking” her strike game.
And hey, say what you want about her as a character not matching up to the archetype, but I don’t see so many characters lifting other characters just straight up off their feet! Although obviously not Hugo… but I know Urien is hefted straight off the ground (he is maybe the largest though).
(and yes, I know there are non-grapplers who can lift opponent’s up with just ONE hand, eg Sagat kick throw in A3, urien himself in 3S, so really these cosmetic definitions don’t count for much)
A3 Gief is as good as he is almost solely because of the range on Kara Jab SPD. He has good pokes, stupid lariat, and his air priority is disgusting, but grabbin a shoto from outside of low forward range is way too scary. Sodom’s CCs are really good, but the biggest gain in V-ism for him is the ability to use b+Fierce whenever he wants. Sodom is just nowhere near as scary without that move. Plus his supers suck(completely unverifiable outside of CH situations, grab super is slow, etc.). I wouldn’t really consider him a grappler, as he’s mainly good because of his retard strong poking game. You do see some A-Giefs from time to time, but you won’t see Sodom winning unless he’s in V.
Back to the original topic, I think every serious fighting game player should learn a grappler at some point. I was the most impatient player in the world until I started playing Zangief. Playing grapplers teaches you things that can be applied to any type of character.
What?
I don’t think Makoto is indirect. The hit from the throw itself doesn’t do much damage, but it basically guarantees a follow up which is basically the same thing. Doing [cmd-throw, HP, qcf+HP/2P] does the equivalent of what a more powerful cmd-throw would do.
But the thing I was trying to point out was that qcf+2P or SA.1 costs meter, but Makoto’s able to decide to use that or not after the cmd-throw, which means you don’t risk wasting meter due to whiff. A true grappler would have to risk using their grab super and if it whiffs they waste a bar. If Makoto whiffs a cmd-throw then no meter is lost. But if the cmd-throw lands she can do stuff like [cmd-throw, HP, qcf+HP, SA.1], hit confirmed super off a cmd-throw. And let’s not forget Makoto potentially has a 100% stun using SA.2.
Thing about Karin and Makoto and Iori is that there’s a different ruleset for each of them. Like IMO; Iori and Makoto actually fit in the same category, but Karin does not.
A-ism Karin is more like a mini-grappler. She’s really no more of a grappler in A-ism than a 3S character because her cmd-throw is not better than a normal throw. But then V-ism Karin breaks multiple rules for grapplers. Without meter she doesn’t break any rules, but with meter she is able to grab opponents out of blockstun, during hitstun, and has multiple cmd-throw OTG’s (multiple setups for it). So if your execution is spot-on you can technically “1-hit kill” the opponent if they block or get hit by Karin’s crossup. It’s technically hit-confirmable death, and the only way to avoid it is to not ever let Karin do a crossup while stocked.
CvS2 Iori is more similar to Makoto though. His cmd-throw allows him to do the same thing Makoto does; to use supers off a cmd-throw without having to gamble with the stock. Like a true grappler that gets in can do the attack/block/throw mixup, but if they gamble with a super stock then they risk whiffing that super and losing that stock. But if Iori goes for the grab then he doesn’t risk the stock at all, he can confirm into super.
Makoto has a forward moving special and a ton of good normals with frame advantage, so she’s got a lot of ways to set the trap. Iori can RC his cmd-throw, so he too has a really buff trap off a knockdown. And they both can combo after cmd-throw, so I would put them both in the “uber grappler” category.
In that case, would you consider ST T. Hawk to be in the “uber-grappler” category too? His 360 has no whiff animation, and his 720 doesn’t use the meter unless it connects.
for me as long as the character has damaging comand grabs or has more than 2-3 grapple moves - except for the super specials like 2k1 kyo,
then thats a grappler.
Zangief was probably at his most disgusting in SFEX.