I was responding to this part
Thats a highly subjective view imo.
Makato is over-rated even more so than the game she appears in.
…but it’s correct, so…
No, if people couldn’t win a match with a character, then you can call it a bad a character. Until then, no character is truly “junk”
Yeah, his EX moves make him better; just like how CC’s make Gief better in A2/3.
Nonetheless, he fits into the grappler category.
Hugo is fear. No Mindgames.
I stay away from the wrestler/grappler types, even though they can be cool.
Mainly because I suck at 360 motions, and their best coolest moves are almost always 360s! At least where capcom fighters are concerned.
I feel yah on that one.
Potemkin Buster not being a 360 in AC is possibly the worst thing of all time. Worse than war and famine.
Not that I know a lot (read: anything) about Guilty Gear though.
Please just stop:rofl:. You’ve said enough.
Worst thing of all time? Whats wrong with being able to actually bust out a command throw without running the risk of jumping all over the place, and fast?
The reason Pot is top tier in AC isn’t because of Potemkin Buster.
Wolf and Goh are pretty nasty in VF (’~’)
Well, I guess first things first…
We should probably define what a grappler is, shouldn’t we?
I say start at the beginning: Zangief. I think everyone here would agree that he is the ideal definition of a “grappler”, being the original. So, what makes him so? I’d say it’s his major dependence on throws for offense. I mean everyone had throws in SF2. Even a boxer wearing fricking boxing gloves could grab people (in CE at least).
But, not everyone DEPENDED on throws. Zangief DEPENDS on throws. So much so that he had a COMMAND THROW.
So I think those are the two necessary ingredients to a “grappler”:
- Has one or more command throws beyond the basic universal throw.
- Said command throws are vital to his or her basic offense.
Are characters like Karin and Iori grapplers? I dunno…but, I’m leaning toward ‘no’ since they have so many other tools to effective compete with. Heck, I don’t even think King is a grappler, even though he’s a PRO-WRESTLER. You can screw people up with King real good and never grab them once.
Mokoto? Yeah, maybe? Dash into grab seems pretty dang central to her life…even though she’s doesn’t even break 6 feet. And, she doesn’t say “I’m numbah one”…a telltale sign of a grappler.
So then, umm…what’s a throw? This is where things get shaky…
Initially, I would have said that “throws” are not “hits”…that they’re alternatives to basic punches and kicks that can be blocked. After all, the purpose of a throw was originally to penetrate a block when hits cannot, right? So, the best definition of a throw is “not a hit”. And, the best definition of a hit is “not a throw”.
But, then KOF came along and decided to make throws combo-able. This broke the rules and made “throws” one step closer to “hits”. SNK crossed the beams like Egon! Now, I don’t know what’s going on.
Are Clark and 2K3 Tizoc REALLY grapplers? Or are their command “throws” just glorified hit specials like a dragon punch or a R.E.D. kick (but with ‘benefits’)?
For me, part of the charm of grapplers has always been the ol’ tick -> command throw. The charm lies in the fact that it’s not a true combo. The tick doesn’t automatically lead into the throw. You have to time it just right to get the reward. But, when command throws become comboable, it’s totally different. I’m not saying it isn’t just as difficult. Comboing a crouching jab into Super Argentine Backbreaker or a Yamazaki’s Drill isn’t easy. But, it’s different from TICKING a crouching jab into a FAB or a Gigas Breaker, and it feels less “grapply”.
I don’t know…what do people think of these definitions?
Okay, maybe I was a bit too harsh on Mika…her slide is indeed good…if they don’t block it. And, crouching fierce is pretty handy…and damaging to the guard meter. Plus her Kick super (where she runs around) can confuse/mix-up opponents if used wisely. Still, a Mika player has to work a LOT harder than the average character in A3 just to be competitive…let alone win.
Which was my whole point…sometimes when playing as a grappler you feel like you’re doing all the work…
So…is he really a grappler then? If a tree falls in the forest…
Potemkin Buster is really good and can lead to some nasty damage, it’s just not the sole reason he’s top tier. I consider him a grappling character.
I have no problem with him being top tier or close to it. I just think it’s way too easy to do potbusters, considering its properties. But I’m only saying that because of the manner I’ve seen it used by not-exactly-top players. A good player is able to do 360s just fine, hardly any risk there. But to me the command and what you get out of the move doesn’t match.
Grapplers are fun to play, but I like the idea of doing awesome, flashy combos more so I tend to stay away.
That’s the nice thing about VF. Everybody is nasty.
Agreed. But more specifically it’s the throw mixup that defines a grappler for me. The attack/block/throw mixup.
Pretty much everyone with a throw has this sort of thing, but grapplers are usually more of a threat at point-blank (particularly after a frame advantage tick) due to their command throws. Partly because their throws do more damage and have better range, but mostly because they can time the command throw so that the grab occurs right as you leave blockstun (or throw invulnerability).
So basically, after you block something: If you move then you risk getting hit by the grappler’s attack. But if you don’t move then you risk getting cmd-thrown by the grappler. And if you try a reversal then you risk the grappler simply blocking and punishing your reversal attempt. It’s a mixup where guessing wrong leads to damage and guessing right doesn’t always get you that big of a reward.
Pretty much everyone with a throw is a little mini-grappler because everyone with a throw can pretty much do that kind of mixup. But, to me, what defines a grappler character is the (cmd)throws timing and damage output and the setups for attack/block/throw mixups. A good grappler character will have moves that set up the throw guessing game trap, and will also have command throws with better range and damage output than normal throws.
To me, Makoto is a grappler because she plays exactly that way: move in point blank, use a light/medium attack in order to gain frame advantage to set the trap, then either attack/block/throw – a guessing game where if the opponent guesses wrong then Makoto lands damage.
But Makoto isn’t like traditional grapplers because her throw puts the opponent in hitstun and allows her to combo after the throw, which IMO is a huge deviation from traditional grapplers because that allows her to hit-confirm into supers off a throw. Traditional grapplers waste a bar if they guess wrong, characters like Hugo have to gamble with their bar if they use their command throw super – if it whiffs then he wasted a bar. But Makoto never really wastes a bar because she’s not gambling with the bar – she can confirm off the command throw. But that doesn’t mean she isn’t a grappler, if anything that makes her even better as a grappler (a really really buff grappler, IMO). Playing against good Makotos, playing as Makoto, and watching high-level Makoto players play, it becomes really obvious really quick that the majority of her game revolves around the attack/block/throw mixup. She even has a special move that gives ridiculous frame advantage and moves forward but doesn’t knock down, that’s like every grappler character’s wet dream (combos, moves forward, and gives frame advantage).
And that’s pretty much how I personally gauge grapplers. Do they have the setups and are their mixups more damage-rewarding than normal throws. Technically everyone in 3S is a little mini-grappler, but obviously the potential damage output from successful Makoto command throw vastly outweighs a normal throw. Hugo is like a true grappler and Makoto is like an uber-grappler.
A3 Mika and Birdie, don’t sleep on them.
They can demolish a couple characters, and stand strong in certain matchups.
Potemkin has the correct mixups, the command throws and on top of that he even corresponds to the usual archetype of the grappler :
- cmd grab mixups at very close/point blank range
- pokes are rather slow but have long to huge range and clearly above average damage
- rather weak between point blank and poke range
- unable to control the distance by zoning (which is great, a grappler who could zone would be retarded)
in fact Potemkin is not sooo different from Zero Gief when you look at his pros and cons (but I’m not saying they’re like exactly the same, don’t make me say that^^)
Imho playing grapplers usually comes down mainly to distance control after you know how to use and abuse your grab mixups: know where you’re safe, know where your enemy is not and keep him in the danger zone as much as possible.
I personally tend to be an aggressive turtle in the sense that I usually push forward but without rushing things. Doing so if you’re not already at point blank increases the pressure on your opponent who may take a bad decision (be it retreating, which will likely lead him to the corner soon, or trying to rush, which will probably end up with a throw if I don’t mess up). Of course I will play kinda differently grapplers who actually can move around/rushdown/have other specifities but i truly think that just waiting for the opponent o come at you is not taking advantage of your strength and of the fear of the grabs.
Just my two cents…