Clearly we’re not playing the same game, MP can punish those on block. And no, you can’t punish MP unless he completely whiffs it the second before you hit him, otherwise he can do MP on reaction to F.HK. Are you new to Marduk or something?
lol Funny, I was gonna ask you the same thing. Gief is only good if he’s in MP or light SPD range. Marduk on the other hand excels beyond Giefs reach by 5 normals. Duke has got others besides pokes which you haven’t discovered. So he’s way better than Gief by a mile.
Keep dreaming small son. There is absolutely nothing you can do against Gief is he keeps spamming LKMPLKMPLKMP.
I’m kinda on both sides of the fence here…except for snipeclips’s side; I’m not sure what he’s talking about.
Marduk is bad, but I wouldn’t say he’s unfinished. It’s just the stuff he has need fixing. His strings only work from far distance and if the distance is too far they won’t connect. The reward for sucessfully linking his lights into special is kinda small in a game of chains and juggles; he should get more damage off the tackle. Spinning backfist shouldn’t be unsafe on block. Gator Slam should catch backdashers.
I don’t think his weaknesses overshadow his strengths though. Marduk has a very strong AA game. That’s saying a lot when AA normals are trading and everyone’s telling you to go air-to-air to stuff jump-ins (mind as well just Alpha Counter. It’s a lot less risky). He has a fast command grab in a game of crappy throws all around. He also has deceptive range on his standing fierce and roundhouse. I think he does well against shotos and most of the SF cast.
Hard to say anything about the Gief matchup. I imagine lariat stuffs st. hk on reaction and Gief does have chains on his far normals instead of strings that don’t connect properly.
All I’m saying is that Marduk can play outside of Gief’s MP range with HP and MK. Is there a problem with that? And footsies aside, Marduk can still beat anyone in the game. As soon as you get one hard knockdown it’s all over from here. He has just as much options on wake up than anyone else, but I’m guessing no one knows about that yet.
Oh, you mean crossup tick spd? Or crossup into abc? Or just fucking nothing? Once you get a hard knockdown you just reset the god damn situation cause Marduk is awful and doesn’t have any staying power in the long run. Hwoarang vs Marduk is 8-2 in Hwoarang’s favor, so he can’t beat anyone in the game cause his normals and specials are too weak.
This I can agree with. After a knockdown Marduk can scare people into jumping, where he can bait them for a gator slam instead. Thing is, he has to do the command grab early, otherwise, a jab can beat it. He also gotta respect the opponent when they have meter since they can wakeup special then tag out, especially with 2 bars. Alternatively, if they have a teleport they can do that instead.
That’s a bit of a stretch dude.
8-2 in Hwoarang’s favor means he has a hard time beating Hwoarang, not everyone else. His normals have power and range (just want a grappler wants) and he has a strong mixup game.
Don’t sleep on the character.
Look, against Hwoarang the only thing Marduk can do is hope that he jumps a lot. All of his specials except SRK and that air kick thing and normals puts him out of range for any spds so punishing him isn’t an option, and even if they put him in range he’s + on block. You keep saying that he’s got a good mixup game but in reality he only has two options on wakeup. SPD or gator. Strong mixup eh? His normals are ass, his mixup is shit because every special in the game beats it to such an extent that using the SPD on wakeup is worthless unless you’re playing against Steve.
Man, I thought you knew what you were talking about.
And how do you suppose Marduk does that? maybe chase him to the corner where he’s forced to jump over him? Hwoarang doesn’t have a projectile so he can’t keep Marduk away without running the risk of getting smacked in the face by one of marduk’s long ass normals.
You think command grab is the only way for Marduk to punish people in this game? It’s SFxT, he can do a boost or link combo. He can smack him with one of his long-range normals. He can bait the player into doing something he can punish, like jump-ins for example.
Also, all of Hwoarang’s special moves except Dynamite Heel can be punished with a command grab. If you don’t believe me, go into training mode and see for yourself.
…or crouching lk into combo, or overhead, or crossup mk, or backdash to bait a DP tag cancel, or a bunch of other options. That’s how you play mixups. You can’t confuse opponents with just two moves.
You keep saying he had bad normals but you won’t specific why. You say his mixups are bad because every special beats it when you’re only referring to his command grab, which only gets beaten by moves that come out before the active frames (which is 4 frames). Gator slam beats just about anything that’s airborne during its active frames, including SRKs, tatsu, and dive kicks. He can grab Dhalsim out of his jumping stretch normals. Tackle is for combo enders and can easily be hit confirmed off a light attack.
Where are you getting all this misinformation from?
Okay, let’s see here. You mean to say that Marduk should use his Overhead that’s slow and useless? Good point. You think that by pushing Hwoarang into the corner he’ll jump? He doesn’t need to jump, his normals blow through everything. He can push you out by doing his TC combo into a special all day because its +6 on block and Marduk doesn’t have anything that counters that. His Crouching LK combo is decent at best and why would anyone go for crossup mk when you can just dp it anyways? Its so obvious that you’ll go for the crossup MK because its the only normal Marduk has that crosses up. Too easy. And I haven’t said that Gator slam is a bad special, its an amazing AA if not the best AA in the game. His longrange normals are not that good and I have no idea why people still believe so. Its slow, easy to predict and easily punished by a jump. Even if you do it at maximum range you can still get punished because it moves Marduk’s hitbox forward so much. Have you ever played a good Hwoarang? Its seriously awful for Marduk, mainly because Hwoarang doesn’t need to do anything except TC into heel for ages.
I really wanna know where you are getting your information from, cause so far it’s been pretty inaccurate. I know for a fact Dynamite Heel is not +6 on block. Seriously, go into training mode and record hwoarang doing the move, then hold up afterwards. Then replay the recording and block the move as Marduk, then hold up. +6 frame advantage would mean Marduk would still be in blockstun after Hwoarang’s jump, but if you look, Hwoarang and Marduk jump pretty much at the same time. At most, it’s +1. The only move Hwoarang has that’s +6 on block is Air Raid, and that’s a dive kick. Marduk can gator slam him before it hits because the startup is 30 frames. So much for “nothing he can do.”
The problem is you’re playing too much theory fighter, assuming that people will be looking for st.hp/hk (12/19 frames) and jumping in at marduk to punish when he has one of the best AAs in the game (your words.) Unless you know for a fact it’s coming, you should never jump in at Marduk ever.
I know, good players generally don’t jump in at Marduk. And yeah I just checked, you’re correct on the frames and I know that you can gator slam him out of the dive kick. What I meant was that if Hwoarang does the TC into Dynamite heel, he’ll be outside of SPD range and it sets up a frametrap so you can’t punish him. Jumping isn’t an option either cause he can do cr.LK and os it into SRK.
More theory fighter. You assume Marduk can’t hurt Hwoarang without being in command grab range, and that Hwoarang won’t have to risk doing something that is punishable at some point in the fight.
Dynamite Heel is hardly a frame trap at +1 on block (that’s almost 50/50) when Hwoarang’s fastest normal outside of flamigo stance is 4 frames (cr. lk). A frame trap is a move with enough blockstun that the opponent can’t do anything else but block or get hit. Rolento’s jab is a frame trap because it’s 4 frames on startup and +2 on block, so unless the opponent can do something in 2 frames, he/she is force to block until the pushback pushes them apart.
Hwoarang’s longest TC puts Marduk outside of command grab range, but it also puts Marduk outside of Hwoarang’s attack range. He can’t reach Marduk, but Marduk can still reach him with his long-range normals.
You can’t decide definitely on matchups unless you play them against a good player for a long period of time. What sounds one way on paper may be another way in a real match. Your argument describes just one angle of the matchup: Marduk trying to get in desperately to command grab Hwoarang while he uses TCs to keep him away. Here’s another one:
Hwoarang tries to get into range to do target combos but takes too much damage from st.fierce and a few other mistakes. He jumped/did Air Raid anticipating a standing fierce/roundhouse but got Gator Slam instead. Now Marduk has the life lead off a few good reads and Hwoarang either has to take some risks or tag out.
This is why theory fighter is unreliable.
But you’re wrong, Hwoarang is in range, and I have experience from the matchup because I played a Hwoarang player a bunch of times who said the same, the matchup is horrible for Marduk because Hwoarang can pretty much just press buttons. The thing with his long normals are that they’re not that fast, HP is good but the range isn’t as good as HK so thus you’d mostly go for HK which is so slow that reacting to it isn’t hard at all. Do you have any kind of experience of this yourself? Playing against a Hwoarang who did both dynamite heel and mixed it up with the special step and tigerknee air raids is just awful because Marduk can’t do shit except anticipate the air raids. I’m not theory fighting, I have experience with this matchup.
What kind of BS am I reading? Do you have any idea what you are saying? I have to break all of this down to clarify things.
First off, Marduk is a great character. Some can argue otherwise, but he has the tools and options that make him a great character. His normals are good but I don’t see how he can get punished by a jump unless it’s a coincidence. In fact on reaction the jumping opponent will get hit regardless. Gator Slam is a wicked AA and we’ll leave it at that. You’re only talking statistics and not the mental game behind a grappler such as him. He has mix up potential and I emphasized that because I can literally do whatever the hell I want to you and you only have these options to avoid them: block correctly, backdash, jump, or reversal. As for me, my options cover more guesses than one, so here’s a mini list of what my options will beat:
j. MK - backdash, jump, reversals (in some set ups)
Cross up j. MK - backdash, jump, reversals
j. HK - jump, most reversals, backdash (doesn’t hit but lands on the other side vulnerable)
Command grab - block
Empty jump in grab - block
Any normal - jump
Backdash - reversals (whiff punish)
Block - reversals
Gator Slam - jump, most reversals
The only two exceptions are Gief and Hugo, with lariat covering cross up and Hugo’s EX air grab taking the entire front portion of the screen. All of this you have to think of on one knockdown. I didn’t add jab because it beats out grabs with 4 or less frames, and that is the only thing it beats.
Any more BS I see makes you an instant troll in my books.
Don’t sleep on st.fierce. It’s not as long as st.HK but it still goes a distance and it moves Marduk forward.
It sounds like you’re getting tripped up by hwoarang’s mixups and saying it’s a bad matchup cause you’re not sure how to deal with them. The key is to not get caught in the mixups in the first place. Marduk is not designed to deal with pressure, so don’t try to. The only way for Hwoarang to pressure Marduk is if Marduk puts himself in hwoarang’s range, because he can’t get in Marduk’s space without Marduk saying something about it. I have experience with the matchup and I find the matchup to be close to 6-4. 8-2 is what Seth vs. Gief was in Vanilla SF4, back when Seth controlled the entire screen and there was not much gief could do about it. That’s not the case here.
Hwoarang can’t get in Marduk’s face without moving there, and all his mobility options can be punished by Marduk. If he does Special Step that’s a free command grab. If he does Special Step xx Sky Rocket, and I buffer command grab on reaction to the initial Special Step, I’m holding back when it hits and it’s -17 on block; free combo. Hunting Hawk is negative on block and can be gator slammed during the move. I don’t fall for Tk Air Raid cause that’s 22 frame startup; more than enough time for me to Gator slam. I fight a lot of Rufus and Juri players so instant dive kick is not hard to punish. I play a patience Marduk, and unless they have a projectile, they will have to approach me sooner or later. Why should I jump in their face trying to cmd grab all day?
You’re giving Dynamite Heel too much credit. The move is used to make Hwoarang’s strings (or target combos if you want to call them that) safe on block because they’re all minus frames without it. It’s +1, and that’s not a lot. Depending on what he’s doing, you can counter him afterwards. If you know he gonna go for another target combo, then cmd grab him because all of his target combos outside of Flamigo Stance have startup that’s more than 4 frames. If you know he’s gonna go airborne then gator slam. If all else fails and you don’t want to take any risks, then just backdash. You have 3 frames before he can hit you and the only thing that’ll beat backdash is Special Step xx Sky Rocket, and that’s a big risk. Don’t forget you can Alpha Counter if you don’t want to deal with the pressure.
This has been going back and forth for awhile so I’m gonna end with this. Marduk is far from the worse character because he has a lot of strengths. All of his tools have positives and drawbacks (just like most of the cast) so using them without any thought to it is never a good idea. However, depending on what the situation is, they’re pretty useful, which is more than I can say for a few other characters. You can’t determine a character’s standing based on bad examples for use of his/her tools or specific situations where the character can’t do anything. You have to look at the whole picture. Hwoarang has no projectile, his normals are average outside of Flamigo stance, and most of his moves are negative on block. Put him against a character who can punish 80% of his special moves on reaction, who has more range, more vitality, and has the best command grab and one of the best AAs in the game, and you’re telling me he’s weaksauce and goes 8-2 because he has a hard time dealing with Tekken strings?
Sorry, I’m not buying that.
I’m going to go ahead and just say that I have my opinion and you have yours. But I have to say that "Hwoarang has no projectile, his normals are average outside of Flamigo stance, and most of his moves are negative on block. "
Marduk isn’t too different minus the fact that Marduk has no safe specials or any kind of safe pressure except LK/LP strings. You can’t really pressure them as much as the rest of the cast can because in the end if whoever you’re fighting is just blocking he can just wait for you to stop pressing LK and jump or backdash. Guess wrong and its done, you’re pressure is over and the situation is resetted.
Anyways, its as you said, we’re just going back and forth. I never said that Marduk was the worst character in the game, I main him as well. I’ll admit that you seem to be way better than me with Marduk thou!
And to snipeclips: go into training mode and toss out S.HK against anyone that can see it coming, instant punish. Its a good normal but as a poke its risky cause you have to space it perfectly, if you space it wrong by the pixel you’ll get slapped. I’m not trolling, I’m just not trying to glorify a character that is decent at best.
Well i found a team that finally works for me which is Marduk and Poison… I’d like to know how do you do the double gator slam?
Dude, you just stole my team.
Nah, I’m kidding. I think it’s a good team. Poison is the only other character besides Marduk where I have a better success at defending against jump-ins outside of EX moves. They work pretty well together. I like how Poison’s EX DP tag cancel combos into Gator Slam when the opponents goes flying in the right direction.
What’s the double gator slam? Are you talking about when he slams then down then does it again? That’s the hp version.
Can you do Poison’s SRK into J.HK, J.HP, HP xx HP Gatorslam? At least in the corner no?